Ahhh...those are great tips Michael and Lucio!
One can kinda glance through a forum like this and pick up some stuff that different guys are trying and I kinda feel like I'm sorta sitting here at the end of a 2 year thread thinking that I haven't contributed to the development of this thing and I apologise. I'm greatful guys....really. I'll certainly use the tips I've got here in the last couple days.
If anyone else wants to put their 2 cents in please do...I like talking about this stuff.
Art

Hey Guys,

As promised here is the Apex 460 Cinemag CM-2480 picture tutorial site:

http://www.morphproductions.com/apex460transformermod.htm

We also did some comparisons with an acoustic guitar and various forms of a modded (and unmodded) Apex 460 so you can hear for yourself what the difference is. You can hear the results here:

http://www.morphproductions.com/apex460mp3comparisons.htm

Hope someone finds this useful!

Very cool of you to put this stuff up!

Just a comment that might make it easier for some doing this.

For the "standard" sort of mod, where you remove C9 and C10. You may as well just solder the yellow (cinemag) wire directly to pin 6 and the orange (cinemag) wire directly to pin 5. It's hard to tell if that's what you are doing from the pics.

Again, it's really awesome for you to make the effort to put that stuff up!

Awesome post, thanks. Just a quick question, I just got my 460 and had a spare EH 12AT7 tube I put in. Less noise and a bit cleaner. I'm awaiting my CEK-12 capsule and Cinemag 2480. In the meantime, I'm going to replace C8. Can I use a Mylar cap to replace the electrolytic ie; would that be as good as a metallized film cap? Also, if I decide to remove C9-C10, do I just cut out the caps and leave the board like that or do I join/jumper the remaining contacts? And is it THAT much better removing C9-C10 soundwise? Thanks.

Mylar cap will sound different. Caps are cheap so experiment. It's really taste. And, caps will vary from brand to brand even with similar type.

Remove C9 and C10. No jumpers are needed. AND then you can wire the yellow ( to pin6) and orange (to pin5) wires from the Cinemag directly to the connector...avoiding the board. In the mods most basic form I'm pretty positive removing C9 and C10 are better. Remember all C9 and C10 are there for are for filtering RF.

K thanks. I don't mind experimenting, I know caps are cheap but I don't want to be soldering parts on/off all the time either. I'm thinking with the tube, capsule and tranny mods (I'll take of C9-C10,too), I don't think C8 will be as much of a WOW factor like the others. I'd just like a faster cap to help smooth things out.

I think the C8 cap has a pretty big impact on the sound. Under certain conditions more than the transformer....the transformer difference can really be heard with higher spl stuff and with fast transients and the cinemag and other better quality trannies help with the sound of stuff with bigger low end.

The capsule IMO is the biggest factor in sonic change. But, I was surprised about the difference in sound depending what you put in C8.

I think I'll stick with the 1uf/400v cap in C8 for now but I goofed and went and ordered an
Auricap. I read someone used one and liked it but then read hear it won't fit. D'uh. I may extend the leads and try to tuck it up somewhere.

You definitely don't need a 400v cap there you can go with a 250v film or electrolytic. Either way it will be much smaller than it's 400v counterpart....the circuit doesn't get anywhere near 400v, it's overkill.

PM me if you want to get rid of the auracap, I'll buy it from you. Also a 1.5-3.3uf cap would work there as well depending on the sound you are going for.

Michael

Yeah, there's a site that gives the dimensions as 1.96cmDx2.32cmL so that's definitely not going to fit. I'll double check when it gets here but I'll pm you in a few days or so when it arrives.

Thanks for the tranny extraction/install tips Ashton....This stuff really helps.

Thanks for taking time to do this....
Art

Couple more quick questions...
Would a mylar cap be an improvement over the electro in C8, I can get a bunch of those pretty quick?
And also, does the CEK-12 capsule fit into the existing 460 capsule mount or does the CEK-12 come with a mounting bracket? Would I have to order that separate?
Thanks for putting up with my questions.
Michael.

D'uh sorry, just realized I asked about the mylar above. I guess would it be cleaner sounding than the electro. Also, Ashton's capsule mod page (great work, btw) does say he's got a peluso mount but did it come "with" the capsule or was it ordered separate. Sorry, should've been more specific last post.

Usually Peluso will sell you the whole mount. Not just the sort of "U" shaped mount itself, but also the bottom hard rubber mount part as well. All you really need is the "U" mount though if you mount the CEK12.

If you get a 347 or 367 the Apex mount works with a slight bit of widening of the holes.

One more thing. I just did a bunch different sort of shootouts (all using the same tube) and I must say (and give major props to) Lucio's adaptation of the C24 circuit REALLY sounded incredibly good....it really left all the other mods in the dust. I just changed vendors (shinkoh and riken for the resistors, Panasonic, Relcap and Auracap for the caps) for the parts and used an Auracap at 2uf for C8 instead of 1.5 and the mic had a huge beautiful sound!



Another thing I've been observing. I think what Lucio says is true, Auracap is a little brighter sounding, but I think the fact that I've been using Shinkoh resistors (which seem to make things a little darker sounding) balances things out. Also I've noticed that what cap brand you use in C5 can make a bit of a difference. I've tried Wima, Multicap, and Relcap and results were different. The Multicap and Relcap sounded a bit better.

Thanks MPCNYC, I just found this cap here:
http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=35_30&products_id=625
Looks like it "should" fit. I'm glad to hear the C24 cct by Lucio works great. Funny, for all the mod talk et al, the stock 460 DOESN'T sound that bad, really. After all, it IS essentially an Telefunken M16, no? I think they sold for $1200-$1400 new a couple of years ago.
I think for me at this point, I'm gonna stick with my mods as follows:
1. New EH 12AT7 tube
2. 1 or 1.2uf cap as above at C8
3. Cinemag 2480 xformer
4. CEK-12 capsule.
5. Remove C9-C10.
I could use this mic as is but I'm sure I'll be more than thrilled with the above mods.

Michael,

True, the basic 460 mod is really cool and makes that mic much much hipper. Your money and time were well spent on it.

The cool thing about this thread is this: There's actually about 5 or 6 people that have consistantly contributed really great ideas..and have built apon eachothers ideas. When Lucio first chimed in on this thread he has asking some pretty basic questions and people like me and a few others were kind of pointing him in the right direction. But, he quickly took some of that knowledge and came up with his own stuff, and I can say I've learned a bunch of stuff from him. Like I mentioned his mod is basically the best sounding of the lot I've done.

I guess my point is that if you eventually take the mods to their extreme that a lot of us had you will end up with a mic that is as good as anything out there. Period.

The capsules and transformers we're using are as good as anything available. I've used cinemag, Funkenwerk, and Peluso trannies and they are all great. Also, when you use some of the premium parts like blackgate, and similar stuff like many of the modders here have been you are using stuff that simply wouldn't be affordable for most manufacturers to put in a large run of mics.

In the end as long as you are happy with your mic that is most important. It'll sound really nice....oh, btw, you may also consider removing C7 and perhaps C6 as well.

Also, that power supply mod that Honkjonk posted is REALLY good and makes for a quieter more open sounding mic as well...It cost me about $60, those blackgate caps are expensive!!

....let me know how that cap works and if it fits.

Yeah, I remember Lucio's first posts and then some of the later ones I was like "wow, I don't know if I'd do THAT..." (just because of my own abilities, the mods themselves sounded awesome).
I think the Erse caps will fit. I got 1uf, 1.2uf and 1.5uf. I think I'll try the 1.2 first. Ordering my capsule and mount later today. Cinemag has a 2 week back order on trannies so it'll be a bit but these mods already should shine it up nice. Yeah, putting these premium parts in production would make it a $1000-$1500 mic right off the shelf, but to do-it-youself, it's basically costing me the micx2(including everything) to end up with a mic sounding like it was 4-6X the price. No brainer.
I'll follow up for sure about these caps, too.

Wow guys, thanks.

Michael,

I'm really glad that you're liking the way the mic sounds.

I basically followed the AKG C12 circuit except for the cathode resistor and bypass cap, which is from the C24 because the C12's circuit is very different at that point with some parts in the P.S. That's the only reason that I felt confident enough to try some of these things (as well as asking opinions from people I trusted).

When I first started reading about these mods, I was looking in 4 different forums gathering different info from each and trying to see what matched up and what didn't as well as researching schematics (thanks Michael for your help in that area as well as others). It was quite an undertaking with alot of very knowledgeable people giving tips and some not so knowledgeable.

Anyway, after finally getting these mics together I thought that I'd try to put the info in one place and explain some things that are usually assumed that people already know (which I didn't).

There are still somethings that I didn't get a chance to say, like that the actual wiring of the tube socket doesn't match the way it's shown in the schematic, which can be confusing. In the schematic the socket connections count counterclockwise 1,2,3,4,5,8,7,6. But on the actual socket it counts counterclockwise 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. At least on the Apex. On the Nady it counts clockwise 1 thru 8.

When I get some "extra" $$$(right) I'd like to try some of those brands of caps and resistors out, but I don't know when that'll be at this point.

mamm7215,

You might want to try a 12AY7 with the CEK-12 also. The 12AT7 will work but the sound will be quite different depending on the tube used. It's almost like having two different mics.

Lucio

Hmmm, sure I could try that. A friend of mine who's kinda an old music/electronic pack rat has a box of tubes in his storage unit, I'll see what he's got. I had the EH 12AT7 on hand so I figured it'd be good enough to start with as long as I get the chinese 12AX7 out. 12AY7 will be less gain, "cleaner??" than the 12AT7, I guess eq characteristics, if any, will depend on the tube. And another kudo to you Lucio, your work and everyone else's here has been awesome.