Ok I dont wanna sound like Im going on about mixing but yh... well im loving it, particularly with some fantastic help on these forums I really appreciate how its bringing it together, my kicks and bass are beginning to punch.

However I have a few minor problems that I need to iron out.


1. Is it just a lot of instruments that make a rock mix sound thicker?

2. Why do my mixs although beginning to sound warm still sound harsh in the upper end, I listen to my fav stuff and its so much easier on the ears

3. I know mastering is a lot to do with the end result, is it worth referencing CD's when so many people think being the mastering engineer is the king.

4. Am i not just better of training to be a mastering engineer - does that cover both grounds (is it possible)


A few question, not complaining at all with the help, as I said I really enjoy it but I intend on doing the best I can with the little I have. (kit list below)

Monitors: KRK rkt8
Sound card: RME Fireface 400
PC: Running REAPER (planning on Cubase 4 possible although reaper is bloody good)

Kit list:

Rack:
SSL Duende with EQ channel and Buss Compressor (oh yea baby)
Boss SX-700 outboard effects processor
Focusrite Trackmaster Mic/instrument Preamp

Mics:

AKG Solidtube valve condensor
Electro Harmonix EH-R1 Ribbon Mic
Shure SM58
Studio Projects B1
Samon C1
Oktava MK-219 (Slightly modified)

Plugs:
(duende)
Waves Mecury
Drumagog + Supersonic Samples
BFD
Sonnox Oxford Plugs
IK multimedia CSR reverb
Izotope Ozone

And loads of others but those are my fav.

Guitar gear:

Orange amp OTR120 (Noel gallagers actual amp - I know im not an oasis fan but it was a lucky purchase) and Boss GT3 guitar processor plus loads of true valve pedals.



So am i missing something crucial?

Most "thick rock mixes actually have a pretty small number of instruments going one.

If you mixes are too harsh than they are too harsh and you should fix that at the mix stage. Are you boosting high end on lots of instruments?

Mastering takes years to really understand.

Your first question is good but also one that does'nt have just one answer. Layering certain parts can help creating a richer texture but there's much more too it, from the players themselves, how well each instrument is recorded, the recording space, the arrangement, the gear and the mix.
Because there are no easy answers I would say your biggest friend is a well trained ear which comes with study and experience (and through making lots of mistakes). Great engineers know when things are right and that's why they get paid well.
Question 2, you may be eqing too much. Try subtractive eq instead.
I'll leave question 3/4 for someone else

I am trying my best to use subtractive EQ, I think im getting better at nitting together bass and kick, however I tend to be left is some instances with not so much as a hollow mix but a slightly harsh sound across the top end. My EQ is relatively tight Q points. I wonder if I need to get the mic away from the amp.


Also I read that guitars although saturated through valves still need to have a load of compression due to palm mutes and the nature of the sound is this recommended.

I wonder if I struggle without some hi end pre amps. I read you can get good sounds with cheap stuff but ultimatly you want a great sound.


Whats the best way to train your ear? I tend to find it hard to know what i am aactually listening for sometimes.

If you record your guitar right you may not need that much EQ. Highend preamps are obviously great but you can get good results with o.k gear .
It's really difficult to comment without hearing your tracks.
The best way of training your ear is by listening to records. Spend 2 hours each week, listen to all types of music RnB, jazz, Rock, Pop, Classical. Notice the detail, how many instruments are playing, notice the use of reverb (or the lack of it). Where are the instruments positioned. Why do those drums sound so great etc.

From another post of yours. My answer to this one is related to that...

quote:

Lets face it, I can get a pretty decent emulation of an SSL desk in a box for £400. I bought an AKG solitube for £450 that sounds as good as a c12. Money in audio has become less of an issue now.

the fact that you think that tells me you have no experience as a recording engineer. You abosultely do NOT need "loads of compression" on distorted electric guitars. Some...? Maybe--only for the color (like 1176)-not for the reduction in dynamic range. Distorted guitars have very very little dynamic range.

As to thickness, we could talk about some tricks...but, in the end, it's arrangement and multitracking guitars that really gets big and thick, IMO.

Your right I have no experience as a sound engineer I would cut of my dick to work with one, but I think they wanna save the magic for their own selected tribe - ive tried round my area so hard to get a chance - its the most depressing thing that drives a man to drink some nights. I love working on audio but the music industry can swollow its own cock for all I care at the moment.

By the way you saying the duende is crap? geez im so confused, I mean if its true I'll sell it all of but what for? Should I just save 5 grand and buy an API lunchbox with all the modules I wanna do this seriously but for someone to tell me that I have no experience when there is none to be found kills my heart, I have never been more passionate about anything else but this makes me wanna sound like some emo kid (and im 28)

I wanna do it cos i love it i wish someone would just make the DVD to answer all questions

I've got no experience with Duende...but, I'll saying it doesn't sound any more like an SSL desk than a UA plug in sounds like an LA2a.

You'll get better. You just keep doing it. I've been recording myself and others for almost 20 years...you have better tools than I had for most of that time. Don't worry about the tools in the panned back sense.

Are there DVDs that would teach you how to arrange a song professionally? Play guitar professionally? The answer is, "Well yes, but..." Like book before them, they're just jumping off points, and certainly don't answer "all the questions".'

My advice? Start isolating what it is about your "mix" (which is actually a little loaded term) you don't like, and/or doesn't match what you're comparing it to. The reason it's loaded, is that there's no "great mix" that had lousy sounding tracks to start with--and often the ability to manipulate a sound in the mix is directly related to the particular gear used to both capture and manipulate it.

I'm not discouraging you from doing it if you're passionate...I AM encouraging you to realize that A)it's an art and a craft that improve over time and B) the gear DOES matter-particularly cumlatively, and digital emulations of this or that or low cost "inspired by" gear is NOT the equivalent. Mean you shouldn't use them? Hells no. Just means that to a degree you need to manage your expectations. You don't have a closet of incredible mics, tape or great converters to capture, or the equivalent of a fine analog desk and compressors/EQ/outboard to craft your mix with. Does that mean it will be "harsh in the upper mids"? No...but, if you go under the assumption you're using the same tools the pros are using, you're going to think it's all your fault. At this point, it likely is , but that doesn't change that you need to keep in mind that it will be that bottleneck before you get to that "equivalent sound".

Thanks i appreciate the input.. I hope i can acheive at least 1/5 the quality of my fav band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPSGS-ymseI

can anyone tell me how? The kick.. the snare. the guitars oh my!

Keyboards. At some point they became uncool, but there's a level of sonics you won't get, even in hard rock without layered keys behind it. I was noticing listening to some old 80s metal stuff...no keys=not very full or polished sound.

Multitracked arranged guitars--not the same parts or tones.

that's what I hear there. Not sure I like the snare as much as you do...it sounds kinda electronic and replaced poorly to me. tata tata tata...very machine gunny on the fills.

Dude,

How about recording one of their tunes with your peeps, gear and instruments. That way you could easily A/B your mix with theirs and hone your skills in the process.
FWIW:I agree with the Pops assesment of the snare sound.

interesting, i know what you mean about the drums but they very punchy without killing the sound that swhy i like it

God i hear the keyboards behind all of it now, i sort of suspected but my ears just were not sure DAMB IT thanks for that been bugging me for ages

Wow its like being shown kung fu (sorry just watched that Panda!)

Thanks for the input, I used keyboards a lot when i used to multitrack but thought they sounded stupid as I began to write more. However I have placed some behind my tracks and yes they stand out (due to lack of experience with adding them) but they fill it right in, and ive become so much more aware of there existance in the music I like. Thanks for your help youve made me jog my ears and appreciate something really importanct.. layering!

Katatonia!!!

I friggin love Katatonia...so you must be into Porcupine Tree and Opeth as well...kudos.

Yes I love the stuff. And i've come to use it to reference it as my handicap for recording.

I love Opeth Watershed is awsome. I've also come to love the methods that Jens Bogren uses to record them (well or I just wanna know how the hell one does), but to be honest recently I have started to idolise most great sound engineers apreciating how amazing it is. Problem is sometimes I dont know whos more the genious the engineer of the mastering engineer.


Still it would be pretty boring if I could so it all so easilty, thats what makes it fun!

please listen to the song entitled solo:


www.myspace.com/sleeperuk


and tell me why it still not working. Am i really that bad. I noticed even compaied to your song JeffSanders that its dark and so quiet, if I try to push up the upper frequencies harshness becomes it.

Ive realised that I become too obsessed with various areas of frequencies and foret that quite a difference can be made playing with highs, ie 6-12k on various intruments that give a larger sound.. or do I mean a more spacious sound making them more prominent in the mix, hopefully i wont get caught making everything to toppy.