I love playing with other musicians...but I've just moved to town, and I've got a day job, and many, many other excuses for not meeting musicians (strong slap to the hand). And lately I'm on a jag of practicing and learning guitar better. Very cool.

But I need to meet some other people around her. I've been thinking I should get myself a coffee house gig, say 1x a month or so. It'd get me out, my ass would be on the line, and it'd motivate me to get some song learnt!

In terms of trying to do it all...well, I wasn't on the road for 6 years like Gonz, but I was in a band in LA for two years, and I hated the auditioning and meeting people part. It was pppppaaaaaaiiiiinnnnnffffffuuuuuullllll! Yikes. Don't want to face that again. But soon I will anyway.

I think that home studios are necessary for people who create art only. It’s a new form of notation. When you compose a peace of composition & you ask the drummer to perform his part, you end up with additions from the drummer. Some composers may like it, some don’t. I personally don’t, no offence, sorry. So every time you have a good player to perform it, you find it easier to make a good example of you playing the part so they can listen to it & learn, plus to feel the whole thing to be able to put it down right. Yet it’s not so easy to find a person able to do it right, only musicians with a huge background and experience are able to do it “without extras”. I think when Mozart wrote his Don Juan he didn’t expect the performer to sing “x note instead of y” just because the one felt so, you know what I mean..

Now project studio is a completely different story. Looks like everybody has his own reason for one.

Hey Dot,
I'm one of those guys that you speak of, except for one fact, I don't play songs from my childhood-hippy days.
Anyway, one reason I do it all myself is because of people like you, (ie. musicians with bad attiutudes, not to mention no talent).
Let's face it most musicians plain ol' suck, sorry, but I can count the number of good musicians I've come across in a lifetime on one hand.
Am I any good as an engineer or mix master...hell no ! but at least I'm getting something done, and learning a shit load about recording in the process.
If I had to count on other people I'd never get anything done, and aside from paying pros to come in, musically it would sound like shit.
I have a friend doing it, or should I say trying to do it the other way......he can't get shit done, even paying pros to come in, why ? because he's trying to find the right people (musicians) and in the process is dropping loads of money on equiptment and pros to come in. Mean while I'm pumping out songs, and my cheap junk equiptment sounds as good as his 1 half baked demo he finally managed to get out....
I spend a lifetime putting up with and playing with horse-shit musicians, once I got my bedroom studio setup, it was so nice to just sit down and make some music, at that point a actually lost interest in playing with other people, because now I can make good music...ALL BY MYSELF.
Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't want to play with other people, it's just that they suck and then you gotta round'em up and deal with all the shit and attiutdes....my current band is a perfect example, the band has had offers to go into record some demos by friends with fairly decent studios, I avoid the offers, because I know exactly what will happen. You really start to find out how bad people play and how dumb they are when you get them in a studio, I don't need the aggravation...not with this group of guys.
Besides.........DOT what's it to you what anyone else does with their recording, sounds like you got some issues to deal with.
Using your logic of why try and do it all one's self, why would anyone ever learn to play more than one instrument, just collaborate with others right ?
You know I don't really give a shit if my recordings aren't mixed or master by pros and if they don't sound 'professional'.....actually my home cooking doesn't taste like a top resturant either come to think of it, but me and my friends get full and satisfied all the same. In fact it taste better because it's mine.
You what really get's me about, typified by people like DOT, that have this attitude they are the pros, doing it the pro why, using the right gear, etc.......you know give it a break, go spend 20k on your stuido and you ain't any closer to a 20 million dollar Abby Road studio than I am with 1k of equiptment...and you know what....whenever I hear records by your DOT type guys........it doesn't sound very good to me.....sounds like my cheap equiptment.. so who are we kidding here....
This guy on this other forum was always ranting and sounding like he was Mr Studio, then one day I came across some of his records...........man did he suck, recording and music. It was laughable...
OK DOT, here's my question or comment to you....why do you guys spend all that time and money and colloperate with all the musicians and do all the stuff you talk about and then its sounds like shit anyway......huh ? what's your problem, I'll bet your music sucks like every one else's....
I think one littel old guy in his bedroom can make just as good if not better then the rest of you and actually has a better chance of making some good because.......you know the old saying "to many cooks spoil the soup"
To me it's like trying to have 6 artist try to paint a picture, what do you think that would look like ?
With my bedroom studio I don't have to comprimise down any more, sorry dude........DOT you need to screw your head on a little tigher and open you mind up, it's a new world out there now, and talented guys like me don't need you hack musicians or high priced studios anymore........and I know that, even though they won't admit it, pisses off a lot of people...........

quote:

Originally posted by nbarts:
I think that home studios are necessary for people who create art only. It’s a new form of notation. When you compose a peace of composition & you ask the drummer to perform his part, you end up with additions from the drummer. Some composers may like it, some don’t. I personally don’t, no offence, sorry.

And then there are the control freaks . . .

I don't know how a person can generalize and insinuate that nothing that anybody adds you don't like. No offense. I can certainly relate to a lot of extra additional stuff being not right. That's actually why I write my music out and have musicians who can read well. If I want to be anal about it I write in "fill here" and write out the groove. But generally I'll write maybe a kick drum part and basic dynamics, feel indications, ensemble hits and let the music breath life into the music. I don't want to remove his "create" from it. Then I really dont get what I want.

I think life is what breathes music into the music. And if I can allow the musician to get the feeling that he owns it, in some way; get his creative energy; if I can get his excitement, sometimes I get more than what I expected. Sometimes I get that X factor I wasn't even thinking about. But I have to keep in mind and not loose focus of my intention with the piece.

Worse is when it sits there like a log and I feel crushed because there's no vibe at all. The vibe is the life found, in my experience, when two or more good musicians play, who "get it" , at the same time.

I think that's total "Type-A gonna have a fuckin heart attack" bullshit...you should be ashamed of yourself for insulting DOT and the rest of us real world music-types. You might as well stay in your bedroom, cuz the real world really doesn't need asshole flamers. Seriously, lock the door and stay in there.

Henry,
Like I said some like it, some don’t.

I’ve noticed that lately more & more musicians have that concept “let’s try this, try that”

When I used to work in the studio I’ve noticed that most of people that have bands & do a lot of gigs like to involve a lot of people in their recordings. So most of the time we would start something being A & end up with B. Now I don’t say that B’s bad. Probably this works for bands pretty well. That’s good from marketing point of view too.

But Henry, if you’ve noticed, most of the band members at some point like to go on their own, they want their own music to be made.

So to me personally, although B can sound better than A sometimes, A has more heart & soul to it.

I dunno, I don't know too many "bedroom" types who are doing it out of choice.

I think most of them would collaborate with others if they could, but the details of their lives just don't make it easy for that to happen.

Here's the thing I've noticed about musicians in the "real world":

The good ones - the ones you want to play with - tend not to want to play "just for fun". They're out gigging. It's a job for them.

The guys who want to just "jam" tend to be the middle-aged guys with the ponytail who want to play bad blues and Credence songs.

Anyway, I've heard plenty of great stuff by "bedroom" guys. I have a 30-song playlist of stuff from the days I hung out on Homerecording.com, and there's some terrific stuff on there.

And the bottom line is: if some guy who has a regular job gets off by playing Credence songs in his bedroom with a drum machine, good for him.

What do I give a shit how other people work music into their lives? If it makes them happy, then it's cool.

Chris

Quote: "What do I give a shit how other people work music into their lives? If it makes them happy, then it's cool."

Yeah man I can relate. I probably am one of those "too busy" play-for-money musicians, but I also host an open mic night and really solicit singer/guitarists to come out and share their music, if only a song or two. I also have a radio station and we totally encourage local/indies to share their music...The social aspects of being in bands and recording the band can work both for the good and also suck even at the same time...pretty complicated topic this bedroom "studio" thing...

Chris - I think you pretty much nailed it.

nbarts - All I'm saying, and we certainly don't have to agree AT ALL, is that having a FIXED IDEA or point of view, sometimes doesn't lend itself to a more soulful vibe.

I think most "band members" going off on their own is, to me, a slightly different subject. Maybe not. I have my ideas about some of the reasons for this. But I think music is always, almost always, much better when more people are involved. Sometimmes one's own ego does much better when in check by others who may disagree with your, the composers, actual viewpoint. I know this as a composer and band leader and as sideman in many great groups. But often you have t hold your position. "No, I don't want a bass solo-like section in there! Play what's written!"

But I always tell the guys I'm open to ideas, even if I veto them. As usual YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by Studiodawg:
I think that's total "Type-A gonna have a fuckin heart attack" bullshit...you should be ashamed of yourself for insulting DOT and the rest of us real world music-types. You might as well stay in your bedroom, cuz the real world really doesn't need asshole flamers. Seriously, lock the door and stay in there.

Yeah, JoeJoe - WHAT THE FUCK, DUDE?!?

First of all, Dan (Dot) is pretty much the OPPOSITE of all those shitty, ignorant things you just wrote (hack, bad attitude, etc). You're just being plain old STUPID.

Lighten the fuck up.

mud

I've played out of and in the studio with other musicians all of my life.

For awhile, it hasn't been live for pay.....just live for play.

I prefer to interact with other musicians and would really prefer to have someone else engineer so that I can focus on creating and performing.

I originally set up my home studio as a demo place for myself and whoever. At this point, I would not like strangers coming into my home knowing what I have, so I won't be recording anyone. it's not so much the gear to protect, but my family.

I like a lot of what you say Dot; however, having a bunch of people in the home studio doesn't guarantee anything either.
I've heard a lot of crappy tracks by groups of people just as well as solo projects.
I dunno, how can anyone define with certainty how more people = better recording?

I don't see anything wrong with people recording anyway they want and with who they want or don't want. It's all a matter of opinion. I do both, sometimes in streaks, where I never do anything at home except work out parts and other times where I am the hermit, sort of.....at least with working on a project.

I love the spark of creating with other people. I also dig hearing something I;v done all by myself. When affordabe multi-tracks first came along I got a rush out of it. I found out I could play and record different instruments, write, play, and sing every part and it was just awesome. I also got tired of it after awhile as it became grueling and again, there is nothing quite like having a spark with a groupl of musicians. Next to an orgasm, nothing feels better to me.

Something that strikes me about your post though Dan is what honetsly comes across to me as a hypocrisy of sorts on at least one topic. EX: sick of people going to internet gear forums then why not close this one down? If nothing else, it is enabling the very thing you say you despise. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is the root of the problem or "you" caused this........just something that instantly popped into my head as I read it.

In all, music recording these days reminds me of activities with kids. When I was a kid we were outside all day, every day, playing sports and games. Now, kids are in the house gaming. T

Technology is an enabler in that way. hey, when I grew up in the inner city, familis sat outside and the kids played and the parents socialized. Every night in the summer was like a block party. Now, the neighbors barely know each other.

I think in a way music has followed along....unfortnately.

I'm a weak musician and my studio is mainly for other people. I try to record msyelf but with alot to learn about writing and performing, it's mostly studio practice. My studio sometimes caters to the hermit home recorders that have figured out how futile it *can* be... but I would go on to say that busiess has been slow and I'm coming to find out it's that alot of these basement PC hermits are hooking up their friends to finance the "next great magic box" grrrr....

I think I picked up a different message than a couple of folks here with regards to Dan's original rant. Dan can correct me if I'm wrong.

First, it seems to me that what was pissing him off were people with marginal skills/experience, and who are basically working in a vacuum by themselves by choice, constantly whining about their product not sounding "pro" enough. So, unless you have marginal skills, are making no attempt to broaden yourself with real experiences and are constantly whining, I don't think this rant was directed at you.

Second, he makes a point about collaborating and complimenting skillsets which makes sense to me. Sure, there's plenty of scenarios for all of us to be doing everything ourselves. Maybe it's to flush out a tune or arrangement, maybe it's a personal challenge thing, or maybe we've pissed off everyone in town and no one will work with us. Etc.

I've just recently had first hand experience finishing an album for a good friend who fits Dan's first paragraph for the most part. It started as a control thing on his part. So, he tracks all the songs on a small recorder. All instrumentation was from a single, inexpensive sound module. His mic/preamp chain cost less than $300. Oh, he had never recorded an instrument before in his life. He's been in the studio before as a performer, just never tracked or mixed anything himself.

He was frustrated as hell through all the tracking (10 songs). I became his personal HeldDesk. At least he didn't have the need (nor the skillset, come to think of it) to be posting on forums about it. Anyway, real PITA for me, but we worked through it over time.

To shorten the story a little, he ends up at my place after he's done for a listen. He's upset because it doesn't sound that great. He's under the impression that I'll be able to write down some EQ changes for him to apply to the 2-tracks so it'll all sound more "pro". Yikes.

The project started off innocently enough. It was a personal challege and total control thing. Where he jumped the tracks was later, after all that work, wanting it to sound pro. So he started with one objective and ended with another. Dealing with this kind of scenario can get real old, real quick.

It is interesting to read why some people *only* work alone, though. By choice, no budget or bartering options, don't know any other muscians up to your standards, whatever.

Steve

I'm somewhat in the same camp as Gonzo. Played for years trying to get famous and got burned out on the never ending shitty venue slog. When you're an originals band you wind up playing for a lot of empty tables and chairs and getting paid next to nothing for it. Factor in the scuzball club owners trying to stiff you (when you got paid at all) and the fact that musicians are, in general, flakes and the whole thing is a lot less glamorous than people think. I bailed out of that scene in '99 and haven't really regretted it. There were rare times when the planets aligned and magical moments were created, but not enough of them to make me want to get back into that whole mess.

Recording it's a somewhat different story. I prefer the collaborative process over the hermit life. For me, the creative process is enhanced when I'm working with others. Problem is, you still gotta deal with the "artistic" types who don't seem to have a concept of punctuality or follow through. Simple things like being prepared, showing up on time, or checking the 'tude at the door when you're collaborating with others seem to be alien concepts for some of these folks. I agree with Dot that the end product is often better with a collaborative effort but I can understand why some might opt for the hermit approach rather than dealing with the dork squad.

You know, I don't have a problem with flakey musicians, for the most part. People don't flake on me. Maybe it's my reputation. Maybe it's because I've weeded all those guys out long ago.

Long ago I used to have problems getting musicians to play the parts I wanted them to. Like nbarts said. Most times I discovered it was a deficit on the musicians part. Often they couldn't play it. But it threw me into a quandry. Maybe my idea was fucked up. So when drum machines and four tracks came out I was first in line. I'll do it myself and prove I was right! No more arguing with lame drummers!

I think this has happened to a whole bunch of folks. Now a virtual generation has come and gone who learned to play music like hermits, in their own little rooms, by themselves. But I've found, for myself, that having that friction to run against, can help tremendously when creating music. Otherwise it's too much like masturbation. Sex is always better, for me anyway, with a partner.

I can't tell you how many tunes I've writen where someone has a better idea or a different idea. And I LEARN from it. And the song benefits from it. It's all the song. Always the song, not the ego.

But when you don't know, or haven't had the experience of playing in 10 or 15 bands, where it's all done from rehearsals and gigs; where the technology isn't any more advanced than a few amps and cables; where communication skills or playing skills have to be pretty good because you're dealing with three or four other musicians playing songs at the same time -- if you haven't done that first, playing and creating by oneself in a small hovel, like a hermit, more than likely isn't going to bear great fruit.

I might be wrong.

Excellent post tbrugh, I think you eloquently captured the spirit of the initial post. I had to laugh however, at JoeJoe's post....good on him for saying it I think, but perhaps he needed to back it up with some links to some music? Anyway - just another opinion...right? Maybe he's kidsurf in disguise?

Dot, your initial post has reinforced what I've been feeling for a long time now. I havent posted anything in the music station for ages, simply because I dont have anything to post. What I AM doing, is renovating my shed to enclose a half of it, and get a small room together. One of my best friends who I used to play in bands with has just moved out near me, and my goal is to have one night a week set aside to jam, write, play sing and have creative fun.

Funny - I feel like I have to justify myself for some reason. The initial post DID strike a chord.

All the best
(from one of the middle aged bedroom closet heads)

T

Socrates says “When a group of friends have enjoyed fine conversation together, you will find that suddenly something extraordinary happens. As they are speaking, it’s as if a spark ignites, passing from one speaker to another, and as it travels, it gathers strength, building into a warm and illuminating flame of mutual understanding which none of them could have achieved alone.”

This is what Dot meant IMO, at least that’s the message I got from his post.


But I tend to agree with Nietzsche, who said that people need to be alone to be able to think.
And like Zarathustra when he had enough to say he would join people. He would give what he had & would learn things from others, then when he felt empty he would go back to the mountains & start thinking again.

quote:

Originally posted by Henryrobinett:
Otherwise it's too much like masturbation. Sex is always better, for me anyway, with a partner.

Jeez, Dot, I resemble that remark. Scuse me for having fun. If I'm enjoying myself, what's it to you?

Having said that, the hyper focus many have on the right equipment as a substitute for making music seems misaligned. But again, who cares if that's what the person enjoys?

Many of us simply don't have the lifestyle to collaborate, play in a band, etc. I'm lucky when I can grab an hour to duck into my studio and play around a little. To me it's a sanctuary and a real pleasure to do so, even by myself.

And yes, I made a living at music for a number of years and even in high school made a lot of money playing out.

Having to figure out arrangements and other parts by myself has taught me a lot more about music. I listen to songs differently now. I enjoy figuring out bass lines, drum sequences, etc, even tho they don't sound nearly as good as a "real" bass player or drummer would come up with. I have friends I've played with who've made CD's playing all the parts themselves that I like listening to a lot better than "professional" recordings with accomplished/studio players. And I know many non-musicians who feel the same way about those CD's. I'll take someone playing with heart over technical proficiency any day. Frankly, Neil Young moves me, Joe Satriani bores me.

So here I am trying to defend it, get others to understand it, fuggit. I like playing with others, I also like playing all parts solo (I was going to say playing with myself ). There's a time and a place for each. I enjoy it, so what's it to you or anyone else?

quote:

going on internet gear forums for company and solace

Get used to it, it's a new world; for any subject you can think of that's what people are doing.

Also, before I get flamed about Satriani, I'm obviously talking about my tastes. I have a tremendous amount of respect for him and his abilities. I even took lessons from him for a little while...

Maybe its a bit overly psycho-analytical, but there may be a point in which some people are forced into the one-man studio endeavor. Some may do it for the challenge, some may do it for the absolute control, some may do it because its just what they want to do. These are all perfectly acceptable.

For some though, they may not have a choice. Perception of musical skill (and music in general) is very subjective. I know of some individuals that do it all by themselves because no matter who is playing what for them, its never good enough...some other guys WANT to interact, but they cannot muster anyone, paid or not, as they either don't know people or are so disliked they can't get anyone to help them out. This is a sad situation, but live long enough, and you'll end up seeing them/reading about them/reading their posts on some internet pages. One of these kinds of people's reactions could be bemoaning everything, griping about this or that, etc...Bitter curmudgeons, if you will. The anonymity of the net makes for a pretty safe outlet for these folks.

I don't know about y'all, but I have witnessed otherwise normal people do everything the right way, and still come up a failure. Analogy: a person invests into a very successful shoe store franchise, sets everything up exactly as it should be, structures the business properly, has an ideal (and very expensive) location, and is selling a product that has a wide potential customer base...in spite of all the proper steps, the guy's business is a failure and he goes belly-up in 6 months.

Why? Sometimes, it really DOES come down to the person. There really are some people that in spite of everything, they just can't make friends nor business acquaintences...not for lack of trying, either...we used to refer to them as "Sad Sacks" (WW2 cartoon character)...but they are out there...