quote:

Originally posted by MudBean:
To your credit, Dusty, I read the whole damn thing.

The credit is all yours.

quote:

Oh, and, incidentally, I'm part Hispanic.

Ed "mud" Todd

Then good thing I don't act on my assumtions, eh, Mud?

-Dusty

Not taking sides on any of this (or even bothered to read all of this) but the thing I loved about Studio Forums and why this became my regular internet hang out is that it had a really cool vibe, much cooler than a lot of the other forums.

I have read some pretty whacked things on these boards (some of it by folks in this debate) but the cool thing is that the repsonses have always been things like "Wow XYXYX, Thats a whacky idea" Instead of "Wow XYXYX, You have no clue what you are talking about you idiot..."

On another note: Many of my favorite artists (and clients) are some of the greatest virtuoso musicians on the planet, but also some of the most powerful and emotional recordings I have ever heard have been by young bands just learning how to play. One of my favorite records was the first record by the band Squirel Bait. The singer was 14 and it still sends chills up my spine, not that I am an old timer (well not that old)

quote:

Originally posted by dusty:
Then good thing I don't act on my assumtions, eh, Mud? -Dusty

No skin off my butt, dude. After all, it's all in fun.

mud

quote:

Originally posted by Ronan Chris Murphy:
Not taking sides on any of this (or even bothered to read all of this) but the thing I loved about Studio Forums and why this became my regular internet hang out is that it had a really cool vibe, much cooler than a lot of the other forums.

I have read some pretty whacked things on these boards (some of it by folks in this debate) but the cool thing is that the repsonses have always been things like "Wow XYXYX, Thats a whacky idea" Instead of "Wow XYXYX, You have no clue what you are talking about you idiot..."

Hi Ronan -

HAD a cool vibe?!? Jeez, I'd hate to think that a little crabbiness on my part would ruin the whole vibe for you, man. For my part, I'm not going to defend my occasional surly mood, personality, or lack of diplomacy ... I've seen a few instances of less-than-campfire-girls discourses in my short tenure as a visitor on this forum. But, on the whole, I think this forum is remarkably free of the flamefests that populate many other internet message boards, of whatever topic.

I hope you hang, and, for what it's worth, I hope Dusty hangs, too.

Ed Todd

quote:

Originally posted by MudBean:

Hi Ronan -

HAD a cool vibe?!? Jeez, I'd hate to think that a little crabbiness on my part would ruin the whole vibe for you, man. For my part, I'm not going to defend my occasional surly mood, personality, or lack of diplomacy ... I've seen a few instances of less-than-campfire-girls discourses in my short tenure as a visitor on this forum. But, on the whole, I think this forum is remarkably free of the flamefests that populate many other internet message boards, of whatever topic.

I hope you hang, and, for what it's worth, I hope Dusty hangs, too.

Ed Todd

I don't think Ronan was implying that Studio Forums doesn't currently have a good vibe. I think he was just speaking of the past tense.

Like I could say "I played soccer because it was fun" doesn't mean soccer is no longer fun.

That just shows how you can read in to things differently in text that in person or on the phone you would immediatly get.

And your response shows that no one wants their name to be associated with negative adjectives.

-Dusty

quote:

Originally posted by dusty:
I don't think Ronan was implying that Studio Forums doesn't currently have a good vibe. I think he was just speaking of the past tense.

Like I could say "I played soccer because it was fun" doesn't mean soccer is no longer fun.

That just shows how you can read in to things differently in text that in person or on the phone you would immediatly get.

Well, yes, Dusty. That's the challenge of a message board. If I can't see your face, or hear your voice, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, stupid, or just bad at spelling and typing. That's exactly why I believe it's extremely important to be aware of, and very careful of, what you write here. When you say something, either on the phone or in person, it's gone in an instant - can I even be sure of what it was you just said? If there's a question, or I don't quite get your meaning, I can say, "Excuse me? I missed that." But, when you write things here, and state them as assertions, I have no choice but to take you at your literal word. I can't just assume you're kidding, or saying something just for dramatic effect. The words sit there on the screen, and don't go away. I ran into this issue again just a few moments ago, searching for previous threads about the RNC. The simple truth is, it's NOT "shit" on bass, as you wrote. Sorry, dude, I'm not trying to flame you, it's just that your opinion doesn't carry the weight of a, say, Craig Anderton. And, to write that "reviewers lie" - again, I hope you're just being facetious, but I have no way of knowing. So, I'm forced to draw my own conclusions, based on my knowledge of who you are, which is only provided by what I read that you write. I enjoy making wiseass remarks, too, but the time and place are extremely relevant. When someone is asking for advice, either to base a purchase on, or to figure out if his equipment is busted or not, is that the time?

quote:

And your response shows that no one wants their name to be associated with negative adjectives. -Dusty

No, I don't particularly desire that. I'm not Fletcher.

mud

quote:

Originally posted by MudBean:

Well, yes, Dusty. That's the challenge of a message board. If I can't see your face, or hear your voice, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, stupid, or just bad at spelling and typing.

You'll get the hang of it.

quote:

That's exactly why I believe it's extremely important to be aware of, and very careful of, what you write here. When you say something, either on the phone or in person, it's gone in an instant - can I even be sure of what it was you just said? If there's a question, or I don't quite get your meaning, I can say, "Excuse me? I missed that." But, when you write things here, and state them as assertions, I have no choice but to take you at your literal word. I can't just assume you're kidding, or saying something just for dramatic effect. The words sit there on the screen, and don't go away.

I know what you mean, for better or for worse I don't give it much thought. I think of a thread as a conversation. If I don't get what someone means I ask just like I would on the phone. There are ways to read in to people, but everyone is so differnet. The smileys, quotes, italics, things like "lol" and "imho". I just don't think there is any discussion on here that is serious enough to matter. And that's why I think any kind of put downs should be avoided at all cost, because suddenly you are leaving far too much importance in to the interpretation of the text. And no matter how you type it, it will be interpretted as the person wants to interpret it.

quote:

I ran into this issue again just a few moments ago, searching for previous threads about the RNC. The simple truth is, it's NOT "shit" on bass, as you wrote. Sorry, dude, I'm not trying to flame you, it's just that your opinion doesn't carry the weight of a, say, Craig Anderton. And, to write that "reviewers lie" - again, I hope you're just being facetious, but I have no way of knowing.

Oh, I can find more respectible folks than Craig Anderton say the RNC is great on bass. And it is shit on bass. If I had 3 cheaper, less respected comps that sounded better on bass than it, dozens (at least) other people (including pros!) agree and the manufactuer themselves state it... It is shit on bass. People make comments all the time like "57's are shit on toms". And by that they don't mean 57's are going to have a harsh digital sounding zipper sound mixed with a god awful hazy pumping sound with unreliable results. Am I not qualified to say something I bought and use daily is shit on something? What am I doing here?

Look at all the RNC owners that have already joined in that thread to say it is shit! Are you going to wait until a pro stops in and says it's shit before what we say has any merit over the great Craig Anderton? Since it's 2AM (my time), I give it about 7-8 hours.

quote:

So, I'm forced to draw my own conclusions, based on my knowledge of who you are, which is only provided by what I read that you write. I enjoy making wiseass remarks, too, but the time and place are extremely relevant. When someone is asking for advice, either to base a purchase on, or to figure out if his equipment is busted or not, is that the time?

It wasn't a wise-ass comment. That's what RNC's sound like on bass. And if there is a small setting that sounds usable on some bass parts it still is shit on bass. Everything can't be good, Mud. I think at least half the stuff I try is shit. To say the RNC is great on everything but bass is quite the compliment. To say the RNC is good on bass is robbing the glory from all the compressors (like every other fucking compressor ever built including software) that sounds better than it in that application.

You own an RNC and are a bass player. What do YOU think of the RNC in that application?! That is where you should get your opinion!

Am I qualified to say things sound good? Or just not bad?

-Dusty

quote:

Originally posted by MudBean:

...... I'm not Fletcher.

mud

Thank goodness!!

Joel

Well I think it's extremely important to try and articulate exactly what you mean, using words that specifically indicate what you're talking about whether in live conversation or in type. Words are so important, especially in internet forums, because other things we use to help facilitate understanding, like gestures, tone of voice, eyes, facial contortions or other body things, just aren't available. These are very often crucial towards giving meaning to what we say. Communication is, in many ways, what we're about as human beings, and if we can't communicate well we're down a sink hole quick.

It's easy to unintentionally piss someone off simply by not taking the time to consider what effect those words might mean to someone else. Some times those words truly have nothing to do with anything specifically stated because those words have OTHER ASSOCIATIONS. A white guy in bib overalls can mention the word "'coon", for Racoon, or say "boy" in the direction of a black man, meaning nothing by it, and can cause great offense. So it also requires some effort on our part to understand the implications of words and "speech". Like it or not words contain a kind of power. The letters themselves do not of course, but the meaning and concepts behind them; words being symbols for thoughts, can convey quite a wallop.

I have chosen this forum because people seem a bit more restrained and considerate on the whole. I've left others for the lack of it. I was a respected veteran of one big forum and caused some small hardship when I left. But I can't put up with bad manners and inconsiderate posters.

Dusty, you sometimes do rush in where others tread and sometimes open your mouth when it might be best to consider first and it DOES rankle a bit. Sometimes the naivete is a breath of fresh air but often I have to just not read it. I'd suggest to simply consider a little bit more before you hit the send button.

quote:

Henry. I think you have a lot of good points. But I still think some good music CAN be made with a spacebar!

Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with it either. I do it too, from time to time, when I don't have the piano chops or don't have one of my buddies close by. But I hate it when folks don't learn to play properly or don't try or think they don't have to. That it all's Recycle type things. And for what it is, it's cool. The electronic thing, using the computer AS AN INSTRUMENT is cool. But nothing, I don't think, can replace the experience of having your muscles, your tendons, your flesh, guided by your thoughts and emotions in the RIGHT NOW MOMENT make an instrument sing.

Yes, great music can be made with a computer keyboard. And qualitatively there's no "better than." Great music is great music. I just feel like one of these old men on the brink of a new world when seeing the future realizes what will be lost. And others, in their excitement, don't see it. He becomes one of the last purveyors of what will soon be a lost technology.

I think technology is a great thing, unless we lose sight of who is doing it. Unless we give our power and control over to some group of "programmers". The imagination is still the temple of creativity. However it happens is what is important.

Couple of thoughts...

I've never stopped playing out, so I still get out there. To me, having a recording setup and playing out are discrete.

I've also very rarely been able to hire really good players to play on my own material. I would love to do that - but even if they're friends of mine, I'd prefer to give 'em $100 for their time, you know? I had friends who always paid me when I was younger, and I never forgot how much that meant to me. They treated me like a pro, and I always responded accordingly.

I'm also personally not a very prolific writer - and my writing process occurs more often than not in my head rather than in a tape recorder or whatever. I hear the stuff in my head. I work out lyrics with a lot of care on yellow legal pads - using a rhyming dictionary, a thesaurus, all that. So my own personal process...doesn't really treat my studio as a place for ideas, because I just don't work that way.

Also, I am not really that attached to my recordings of my songs. I mean, I like them and all that - but I'll tell you, if someone came to me and offered to publish one of my songs and place it wherever, I would not care if they did it exactly the way I'd arranged it and recorded it. If they use my music and melody and lyric that's fine - I'll always have my recordings to hear them as close to the way I heard it in my head as I can get them. And there are many, many people more talented than me - I think I'd kind-of enjoy hearing someone else do one of my songs, hearing what they hear in it, hearing how they'd arrange it to reflect what their emotional truth is, you know?

I love recording. I'm no pro. I like working alone. I like working with people and wish I could pay people to play with me more frequently. I guess I just don't view the whole thing as limiting of my skills or ability or whatever.

I always wrote the most when I had collaborators that liked to write. I haven't had that in a long, long time.

[/quote]HenryRobinett:

quote:

Dusty, you sometimes do rush in where others tread and sometimes open your mouth when it might be best to consider first and it DOES rankle a bit. Sometimes the naivete is a breath of fresh air but often I have to just not read it. I'd suggest to simply consider a little bit more before you hit the send button.

Yeah, no doubt! I really need to work on impulse control. I've never not sent a post I've written. I wish I had! But each post (besides this one) is my baby the second it's done. And you can't throw away a baby!

*****

I think there will still be genuine music in 50-100 years, Henry. And by then this stuff will surely backlash and we'll end up where we started. Burly-white wigs will be in style and MTV will be showing videos by The Deadly Bach's shredding away 4 part counterpoint on vintage orchestral instruments.

-Dusty

Thought Ronan's rant was so spot on, we made it into an article.

http://www.studioreviews.com/killingmusic.htm

I was reading a little book called the "Plain Reader"...Amish magazine to oversimplify. Came across a thought that fits here:

(paraphrased)...it's not so much that technology is inheirently bad, but one of the cost of interfacing with machines is that you begin to think like one.

I read a few years back in a mag, (Iposted this b4, no slamming IF you remember it)!!

"You have to learn to be critical of being critical, or it will run away with you"..


How true it is.

I fall into the GAS thing quite well. I dont fully exploit the potential of a new "addition" we'll call it, before Im onto the next.

Part of Ronans post is very true. Especially if you havent gigged at all, trying to perfect the DIY thing very young, will rob you of the time needed to establish yourselves before even NEEDING to record.

I like to play live once in a while still, but I did it alot for many years. I wouldnt trade my experiences in that, for almost anything, however I dont miss it... But, I am real into capturing audio performances now.... thats my old man hobby, and I like where I am with it.

The youngins now have alot of PC experience, and probably isnt that difficult to move into a DAW.... just dont let recording that music "take" your music away from you.

Fantastic thread!
I'm not trying to make a career out of songwriting but sure do a lot of it just for the joy of it.

My wife recently said, after dicovering an old collection of ideas and songs recorded on an old tascam 8 track -- "why don't you do stuff like this anymore!-- your too busy studying Recording and buying new stuff to write"
Ronan thanks for starting this tread!!

i just happened on this thread at the tail end and wanted to add something - if anyone cares.

I've always though of midi, virtual instruments, and virtual studios in a similar vien as a typewriter or word processor.

The best Word Processor on the planet won't turn you into hemmingway or toni morrison. That comes from the mind and soul and no where else. Similar thing for a DAW.

Learn to convey a song with just one instrument and/or one voice and let the DAW be a tool to capture and expand...not the focus.

(just my point of view)

Glen Phillips wrote a cool article in the new Performing Songwriter...actually, I think it was the last one-Wallflowers cover.

I won't reprint the whole thing, but definately check it out if you get the mag...it's about (re)learning how to write with no band pressure. Funniest line (in describing his usual writing day), "...and as anyone avoiding work knows-you can't write unless your EQ plug ins are the latest versions."

I think the effect of a home studio can really vary. I have never been a gigging musician. I have played guitar for over 30 years but I am not really any better than I was 25 years ago. I like to play but I have been more excited in the last 5 years to work with other people's music. I have been working on some song ideas and I think the variety of music I have been exposed to on recording projects is giving me better ideas.

I n re-reading...I'm not sure I got enough of it quoted...

"This is how an average day of solo writing would go...I make a cup of coffee, go out to the garage and pick up a guitar. I play a few chords. I turn on the computer, fire up Digital Performer, and check for updates to my plug ins (as anyone avoiding work knows, you can't write unless your EQ plug in is the latest version)..."

And he goes on to talk about organizing the patches in his PODxt...checking again for updates...listening to a web cast...and then wondering why he had nothing to show for the day. Been there. What's my post count look like?