I know several bands/artists that write and play live/tour, that just want to do that. When they are ready to record, maybe once or twice a year, they go into a studio, pay the money, and are done with it.

Not everyone who is serious about getting their self/merch/name, whatever out there, always wants to embark on the "our private studio" endeaver.......

Even though it will make sense for some to do this, not everybody does.

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach start a project studio.



OK, OK. Pipe down. It was a joke. Only a little true or a lot true or not at all true depending upon who's applying it.

quote:

Originally posted by Henryrobinett:
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach start a project studio.



OK, OK. Pipe down. It was a joke. Only a little true or a lot true or not at all true depending upon who's applying it.

Hahaha......

But....I thought those who can't come to music forums.......?

You know Guitwizz, I really think, at least in many cases, it's best when bands do just that. There are many devices that can used as a sketch pad (heck, I used a mono radio Shack cassette until I wore it out), and as a band, the way to work out songs is to play the darned things.

There's nothing like the magic of laying down tracks for the first time and doing it at a good studio with good people. All you have to do is feel and think about the music, not whether or not the compressor settings are optimal, etc.

Personally, having to wear all of the hats takes away from me and what I like and want to do. I still do it, but would much prefer to be in a studio vibing away on the tunes and the atmosphere of the people and the place, not thinking about gear....except the instruments I am playing.

I wonder how the Beatles or the Stones would have faired had they come about during the home studio age. Would they have created so much good music? Or would they be looking for free plug-ins on the internet?

Don't get me wrong, I love having the ability to have a home studio, but personally I'd rather just create on a VS1680 (or the likes) and go to a studio to record the real thing. The reality is, I am a creative sort and don't exactly love engineering, at least my own music......I'd much prefer to focus on nothing but the music and let the engineers engineer.

Not to mention, my recent plunge into the PC thing has left me less than dazzled so far, reinforcing how much I'd rather just create and play.

Again, it's all in how you like to work.

All in all, the biggest drawback I see with home studios is the focus from music to technology and the lack of live interaction between people. Instead of looking for musicians to gel with to create creative sparks, too many people are seeking sparks from gear and recording methods.

quote:

Not to mention, my recent plunge into the PC thing has left me less than dazzled so far, reinforcing how much I'd rather just create and play.

I thought you were getting a Mac?

You know...I think Jonatha Brooke has a Mac, Digi002, and an Apogee MiniME. To do her demos/writing. Every time I have to move my rig to a different house, I really start to envy that kind of consolidated, simple set up.

Mad - Right on target. I've always said that the crime with the way project studios have turned us is in that most sit alone in their little hovels producing sounds and have little interaction with others. It's no longer a primarily social thing. Music has always been a social thing, except for the long hours of sitting-alone practice. Arguing with other musicians on how best a song should go or whether the tunes should have yet another guitar solo, or does it really need a sub-chorus here, and maybe the dynamics should come way down there, is good for you. But drum machines came about, in no small part, due to NOT HAVING TO ARGUE WITH THE DRUMMER ANY MORE which in the long run hurt - IMNSHO. Now most guys who have their little project studios don't have the necessary friction; don't have the compromise that helps make lackluster music better. You learn from interaction with people. Musicians get better, more than anything, by playing with better musicians. Or even any musicians.

Being in a band changes everything. As long as the rehearsal schedule isn't exchanged for evenings tweeking in the studio. I was in a semi-famous band way back when. Well more like could have been famous - two kind of hit records (both top 15). Had a couple of great songwriters. You should have heard the demos of tunes these guys did at home. If you heard the beginning and final product you'd barely recognize them as the same songs. But it was the band fleshing them out. They had pretty good crude studios for the time - PPG Wave, Emulator, 8 tracks machine, REV7. But it wasn't about even trying ot get a pro sound. It was about WRITING a damn song. They had a budget from Island to go into real studios. So their focus was where it was suppose to be. On writing and performing.

quote:

why does a band need a bunch of guys to write good music and yet a composer can write good music for more players than would be in a typical band.

Well...first, I don't think it's the same thing exactly, but...I think by having an 80 seat orchestra play, and conductor conduct them, not to mention the orchestrator write out the arrangements...there is some serious collaboration going on. I don't agree that bands "write" better songs...at all. I DO think that bands make better records 98% of the time. The compromise and push/pull Henry's talking about is more of an arrangement thing than writing, IMO. Now, for rock bands, they do a lot of writing that way (jamming)--but, I'm not sure that is such a bonus.

I think that's part of the disconnect in discussions of writing. (Song)Writing is melody, lyric, and basic chord movement to me--the copyrightable "song". "Composers" tend to approach things from a mood based arranging side. Barring the most memorable ones (ie Star Wars, ET, etc) can you hum the melody of recent movie scores? I can hum AxelF (having not heard it in a million years) before I could hum any score from White Noise (seen a few months back), for example.

I think home studios a godsend to arrangers. If for no other reason than having the ability to learn it without endless money. I can remember when I got the first 8track+MIDI studio. All of a sudden I had the capability to record 24+ tracks worth of music. Full blown arrangements. And guess what? I found out quickly that I didn't know how. How would I have learned that without the capability to play with it...work on it...? My stuff would be hard to pull off with a 4-5 piece band. Jackson Browne travels with, like 10 people I think...Sarah McLachlan-the same. While I love Jonatha Brooke, she doesn't have the money to do that. She tours with a 4 or 5 piece--and has to do very stripped down versions of her records. She used mostly that band for the new record, and made a much less engaging album, IMO. The songs (writing) are still great, but the overall "sound"..."arrangement"..."impact"...is lessened for me.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but the point is that I think Henry's collaboration in writing is as much collaboration in arranging than anything.

Kid - Well I like to come up with the stuff all by myself too. As a matter of fact I'm probably the worst colllaborator known to mankind.

Pop - You're right, I was mainly talking about arranging duties, but it's the interaction.

What I'm saying is that in my formative stages I was in a lot of original bands. Most of them good with very talented and shrewd, creative songwriters. The musicianship in all cases was very high. So when musicians had opinions they were well informed. We never jamed songs. But someone might say that this bridge isn't really working. Sometimes it would be a dynamics or arranging thing. Sometimes the writer would go back and write a better one or the bass player would or the writer might stick to his guns. But reasons were given and articulated.

This experience, as a songwriter/band leader, is what I can draw upon when it comes time to create my own music. When people don't have this kind of collaborative experience what do they draw upon? Themselves and it can get old. Too much inbreeding. I write the music out and we rehearse. Even if they play what's on the page they bring something else to it that I never could if I had to look for samples. But sometimes, you know, I haven't come up with an intro or ending or the middle is sketchy. Sometimes I'll write out chords and say "shuffle groove" and it's way better and quicker than I could have done programming the drums, playing the bass and keys, guitar too into a DAW.


Plus bands are just the shit. I don't care how good you are a great band is always better than a single guy/gal overdubbing. I saw Stevie Wonder once. So many of his records are situations where he played 80% of everything. But when you see him he has a kick ass band that plays the tunes WAY BETTER than he ever could. He still has them. I don't know whether it's the same but he used to always keep every musician who's ever been in his band on retainer because he's too polite to fire anybody. Why doesn't he record with them?

So I'm not talking collaboration in the writing sense, necessarily. I don''t do that nor do I have any desire to.

No time.....but yes, just talking about interaction between musicians and the creativity it inspires.

It's rare that a whole band becomes one writing unit, usually one, maybe two members emerge in that role. Still, the interaction between them can really inspire.

Anyway, the point isn't which is what. Just that I think less people are interacting than in the past and there's something that is getting lost.

Of course, there are other things that are being gained. It's all about perspective, I guess.
_______________________________________________________

Henry I agree wit you and the band thing.

When I started recording demos at home on the four track cassettes, the click track was the drummer. That is, I recorded my parts to his drumming (and the bass players playing). Even though we had to overdub their parts (and more of mine), much more energy was preserved than by using a regular click track. In fact, sometimes the drummer would just listen on head phones and click his sticks as my click track. He had great time but still was human, and those flucations, especially the tempo increases in the powerful parts of songs, lent to a more reall feel.

Which reminds me. I hate click tracks. I at least like to program in the bass and snare and play to that so that I can feel the groove a little bit, which is totally loss with a regular click. Also, generic loops don't work for me either.

I'd like to just do a two bar count in and play to no click. Unfortuantely I am too human......my timing just doesn't always hold up; even just a glitch or two can ruin the whole track.

In all, for popular type music, the melody line and the hooks are the most important thing. But to me, the next most important is the groove. Sometimes, just lagging a hair behind and being in the pocket makes all the diference in the world over being hard on top with everything. Using click tracks and programmed drums makes it harder to do that. Yes, you can do it well. But the effort it takes to mimic the real thing is really time consuming and never equals the real thing no matter how wel you do it. When I do work like that, I do loose scratch tracks on the main instruments, program the drums and go back and lay them down, and then lay the real tracks to the final drums.

Of course, the drum machine doesn't smoke, drink beer between parts, or complain about it's lack of contributions or how much his royalties are going to be (Hahaha.....seriously). I used the think that was just great, and thouht I was wonderful for being able to program in realistic drums (which could take days for one song to do right). Now, I think I need to go back to the real thing.....and just keep my earplugs in at all times.....or do what Pop and gonzo did, hire a real drummer (excellent moves IMO).

Schindlers List- score


awesome.....

Woah...this took an unexpected but pleasant turn...

I've always tried to get as many tracks at once for the arrangement/live feel that can ONLY be harvested with one person in charge of an arrangement, making eye contact...eyes communicate (IMO) much better than charts, scores, etc...and with ONE person doing the conducting/arragement while recording, things can't help but be a bit tighter, a bit more dynamic, and a bit more natural sounding...also, bleed is your very close friend if used properly.

Movie scores...wow...Jamie Horner, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith all immediately come to mind....don't know who it was off the top of my head, but the guy who did the music for "The Fifth Element" was an absolute genius...again in my opinion.

Now here's someone doing something worthwhile with his home studio!

doubrobinson.com.com

i dunno...

when i'm writing i keep a pad of paper and a pen (or pencil) handy. sometimes i have my little dictation cassette thingie around... and then i hang out and work on the song... lyrics, verse, chorus, pre-chorus, bridge, ending, etc... etc... til i have something of interest.

then i hit the DAW to try to render the idea(s) more... as long as the core performance is ok, then the rest can be experimenting... sometimes have to revisit the song in a few (sometimes 6 or 7) variations - all with new performances until it jells...

the cool thing about a home studio for me is the ready access to my instruments - guitars, keys, drums, mics where i can just hang and jump around - i might hit something on the guitar i think has potential then sit behind the drums and try to create beat and sing to it (without other instruments) to see if it holds... weird but it sometimes leads to other ideas...

that said, sometimes i just open up my DAW, hit record and start playing... see what happens... time stretch a guitar part then add some other parts with echos or pads... create freakisk drum patterns or play the kit with echos...

never know what's going to happen.

but in general, i haven't found the DAW to be inhibiting on my playing or writing - i'm lucky (?) to not be a gear slut so i work with what i have (i've always tended to be this way...) and learn to use it as well as i can...

I really kiked the article as i am a fan of the Keep It Simple principle and it changes from most of the technos-addict speech on the recordings forum.

quote:

My recommendation for a simple songwriting DAW would be the following:
One computer, mackie tracktion, a simple interface with 2-8 inputs 1-2 mic preamps and MIDI I/O, one mic, one midi-keyboard, one guitar, one bass, a vox tonelab (easiest modeller there is), some sample cds. And STICK WITH THAT.

I liked this statement 'cause that the path i am going:
- one computer
- one electric guitar, one acoustic guitar, one violin
- the tascam FW 1082 (mixer, control surface, midi, pre-amps, ...)
- one midi keyboard
- The Vox Tonelab
- Microphone
- Monitors

- Shoud i replace the Cubase LE bundled with Tascam FW-1082 with the Mackie Tracktion ? Why?
- Do i need mic pre-amps ?
- What would be the easiest-quickest-and-good-sounding way to create drum and bass tracks ? Loops, midi ?

Yes i don't want to waste my time trying to become a sound engineer. I want to have fun playing, recording with good quality demos of my songs and my scores.

- Shoud i replace the Cubase LE bundled with Tascam FW-1082 with the Mackie Tracktion ? Why?

In my opinion, yes...LE is almost worthless, and Tracktion has too many editing limitations I think...Although you will soon outgrow each, and be searching for the next step up.
- Do i need mic pre-amps ?

Again, yes....a small but varying assortment of preamps will give you (IMO) more sonic colors to work with
- What would be the easiest-quickest-and-good-sounding way to create drum and bass tracks ? Loops, midi ?
Again, my opinion...but find a good friend who plays real drums...with good replacement packages (Drumagog, et al) you can easily turn a mediocre kit into a killer one....to me, drum programming is excessively time consuming and frustrating, unless you are using straight 8 stuff, without any dynamics, meteric modulations, too cool fills, etc...

Even if you are looking at just recording your own music for your own pleasure, I would get the best you could afford, and then one step up...NOTHING is more frustrating than hearing your work (which you poured your heart and soul into) sounding anything less than satisfactory.

Just my opinion....based on the idea that 15 years ago got the songwriting bug, and built up a small system (Cakewalk Guitarist, integral soundcard, etc...) outgrew it in about 4 hours...next thing you know it has become a full time job...and I STILL haven't gotten around to recording my own CD yet.

quote:

Shoud i replace the Cubase LE bundled with Tascam FW-1082 with the Mackie Tracktion ? Why?

If you don't know, I'd say no.

quote:

- Do i need mic pre-amps ?

You have mic preamps in you Tascam. 4 of them. Do you need other ones? No.

quote:

- What would be the easiest-quickest-and-good-sounding way to create drum and bass tracks ? Loops, midi ?

If you didn't already have the PC, I'd say just buy a iMac or Mac Mini...comes with GarageBand, which is about all a songwriter really needs. As it stands: http://www.generousgroove.com . Or, get BFD or Groove Agent if you want a glorified drum machine.

quote:

....based on the idea that 15 years ago got the songwriting bug, and built up a small system (Cakewalk Guitarist, integral soundcard, etc...) outgrew it in about 4 hours...next thing you know it has become a full time job...and I STILL haven't gotten around to recording my own CD yet.

Is this what you want, Melodious? Or did you want to finish a CD of your own?

Actually, I think the way to spend a little more and hit the price performance mark for a little songwriter/mock up set up is to get an iMac+LogicPro+Interface+keyboard. Then get some cool appropriate sample libs and soft synths.

The step down from that, IMO, is a used "workstation" keyboard (w/sequencer on board) and one of those little Zoom 12-16 track units with drum machine built in. I saw a K2500X going for $1300 the other day. Actually, now that the Roland Fantom series has added 8 tracks of audio recording, maybe just that.

quote:

NOTHING is more frustrating than hearing your work (which you poured your heart and soul into) sounding anything less than satisfactory.

Actually...never hearing your work I would imagine being more unsatisfactory.

I think Mel would need to specify what he wants/expects from his rig. If he want's it to sound like the latest radio cut...well, I'll give you the number to some damn fine studios in town who can hire the musicians and have the gear to make that happen. Same if he wants an indie releaseable finished product--just different studios.

As a songwriter, the "joy" is over for me after the quick mock up I do. The first time I hear a lead gtr break in at the right time...the first time I get the bass and kick to pulse under my melody. It makes me giddy. I did this last round with nothing but my keyboard for sounds, my 4033, sm81, and my DPS24. I didn't even crank up the amp to do the tracks--I just used the little V-Stack pedal. I think one of them, I had everything run through the Great River pre...but, I'm not sure I could tell you which one. The others went thought the Akai pres. The round before was all Sytek (loaner) and the Hamburg. Only reason I can identify those is that I intentionally set out to use nothing but the Sytek for them since it was a loaner I was trying out.

Any anal refining and polishing, etc--the actual "record making"...is work. A labor of love, I suppose, but brings no joy to the songwriter in me. I don't define myself primarily as a songwriter...and that's why I spend time getting solos right or strings arranged just so...or vocals with just the right level of dynamics...the songwriter part of me is happy really early on---then frustrated to no end while the arranger part of me frets about the dissonant interacction between the bass note voicing and the left hand of the piano...

I wrote a LOT more songs when I had a 4 track, MIDI seq, and a keyboard. I had two mics. Dynamics with XLR>1/4" adapters. No pre. Cheap compressor. Couple reverb units. If writing were my main focus, I'd just have consolidated, modern versions of the above. Except, I'd buy an LDC rather than two dynamics. Life is too short to hear your own voice through a sm57.

Popp...you make some valid points....may I respond?

You asked the right questions as to what did the original poster have in mind...what I was saying is that recording one's own music for whatever reason is one thing; that recording in general (to me) is an all time/money/focus obsession which I did not know existed until I got into it....

My opinion was merely to alert potential home recording enthusiasts of the dangers involved, and how a hobby can turn into a life before the hobbyist is even aware that its happening....that's the way it worked for me, anyhow...

And I agree that having my self release still in the works is frustrating....but much of that frustration is alleviated when one hears other people singing their tunes on the radio, TV, or whatever....or hear one's guitar work on a regionally aired commercial...that sort of stuff...

As for any personal release - who knows? I may take a few weeks and do it, then keep it under wraps, to be played only at my funeral (hopefully that will be a few years down the road...)

Point: none really - other than each us of reacts to stimuli differently, and that making music for ANY reason, be it for their own enjoyment or as a means of paying the mortgage, is perhaps the most non-sexual stimulation I can imagine, and that we should be prepared to have the best we can get when the record button is pushed....

But like I said, you've made some very valid points....a tip of the Stetson to the voice of Pop's reasoning....

quote:

Popp...you make some valid points....may I respond?

Thank you...of course...and agreed.

While, I'm not one, I DO know people who define themselves as songwriters. That's their ambition. Actually used to do work for a lot of them commercially. I've since seen so many throw money at "studios"...and either they stop writing...lose ideas...put off writing more stuff until they've figured out how to use the gear, etc...

You're absolutely right. There are a lot of reasons and ways to be doing this. No inheirently bad ones. I certainly didn't mean to imply that.

Well it's sorta true for me. But then again I wasn't happy with recording studios in town. Also I've gotten a better idea what I need to work on musically myself.

Wow.... Dude You pretty much just gave a description of my life for the last year. AH....
The power of music. Thanks for that eye opening insite. Keep em coming man, a little help never hurt knowbody. Peace, RexOne.

RexOne_Murderous_Intentions.jpg (18 Kb, 5 downloads) School of Music

quote:

Originally posted by theodorestreet:
It's incredible that we have so many forces encouraging people to devote a good part of their savings, maybe also their debt, to acquiring musical and recording equipment.

Same could be said for bass boats. Or SUV's. Or oversize plasma screens. At least, with recording gear, you're doing something creative, as opposed to just spending a lot of money for an elaborate way to sit on your ass.