This came out of the Sell anything you regret? topic.

I think of all the gear I've had over the years. Some I'd like to have back, but a lot of it is probably just a pain in the ass. And I got to thinking if we romanticised some of the gear of yesteryear.

I also used to have a tube U67 back when I worked in studios and could hand it over to the studio tech if something needed repair - usually with the power supply. But, as with the '70 BMW 2800CS I'd like to have again, a lot of this "vintage" stuff has now gotten quite old and has seen a lot of years of use. And the prices on older mics and guitars [and cars] reflects more of their collectiblity than their actual value as usable tools.

There's a ton of great stuff on the market now. And I'm not a tech. I'd rather have something newer that was dependable, than some vintage piece that was temperamental and required a regular investment of time and money just to keep it up to working specs.

I do have a '62 Guild 12-string [that's been in my family since '87], and a Gibson acoustic from the '40's. But I enjoy my newer Larrivee acoustic just as much, and it actually gets more use.

I think the idea and the romantic notion of vintage stuff is often sweeter than the reality of actually having it and having to maintain it. I've put a lot of sweat and "soul" into my Larrivee over the last few years. And when I compare it to the '62 Guild, I can't say that the guitar that's now over 40 years-old has anymore "soul" than the guitar that's a little over 4 years-old.

There is obviously vintage gear and instruments that are irreplaceable and have never been reproduced to the same quality. But the cost of them is often so astronomical, that for most people - even pros - the ROI just doesn't make sense.

I wondered what you guys think?

Yeah, sometimes I think about finding a Model to tinker around on, (like I have enough time to have a 2nd hobby/obsession!!) I loved my '50 Ford 2-door that I had in the 70's as my first car in high school and I remember it fondly, but then I remember having to lay on my back on icy concrete in a friend's unheated garage in the dead of winter to drop the transmission and replace yet another throwout bearing. The doors flew open at random due to not being able to find an unworn replacement striker plate; it overheated, no AC, on and on....... My Prism works just fine.....

The '66 Pbass that I lamented over selling in the other thread was probably the closest I have ever come to having some kind of vintage music gear. I guess I pine for the idea of having it again even though it was from the CBS era because the sunburst finish was immaculate and it had real "Brazilian rosewood." I bet it wouldn't play any better than my '88 made in Japan that year only Fender Pbass, which after having since I bought it new, is setup EXACTLY how I want it and sounds great. I do like the idea of having a late '50s or early '60s Pbass just because it would be cool (and I have played one that an old picker in Austin has that's like melted butter!) but the money it takes to get one of those things just doesn't seem realistic when I have kids going to school and bills to pay and mortgages...........

I have played some solid wood Martin D18s from the '50s that I think don't sound near as good as my '84 Martin Shenandoah D-2832 with laminate back and sides. It takes about a $1,800 or more acoustic to get to the same tone as the Shenandoah and I would rather spend it on mics and stuff than replace a tool that already works really well.

I sure would like to hear a vintage tube mic through an all tube mic preamp onto 30 IPS tape first generation sometime though!

So, I don't know; maybe it's sour grapes on my part, but I think I'll be happy if I can find a decent preamp and vocal mic that work for me as well as my not so vintage guitar and bass do.

bilco

i often wonder if my DBX 118 that took me a considerable amount of effort to score, would be regarded as such a cool and a good special fx box as it is now, if the insides were the same, but in an Ashly box or even Behringer..

certainly not the vintage level that's being discussed here, but a point ive been thinking about a lot.

i recently sold my 50's J50 and got a 2004 J45. will sound the same in about 10 years or so, and there's no need for refret or anyhting like that..

i dunno..for every piece of gear that is expensive in terms of keeping it running on top of its game, there's the exact same piece of gear that someone says it ran good for all of its life and is built like a tank..i guess Dot has a point, but in my opinion it goes down to choice and luck. i guess.

the prices are insane though..and what's good today will be the vintage of tomorrow so..if anyone can take confort in that

unless we're Jacl Daniels and can replicate anything based around an electronic circuit perfectly and have all the goods of yesterday here and now, up and running! but not everyone has that kind of skill. certainly not me

I think you're bang on with the romantic notion of most vintage gear, dot and it's been said before.In fact, I was talking to a Luthier the other day that just moved out here and had interned in Italy for a year building archtops and he said CNC is actually a great thing for guitar and consistency.He said there's lots of great, cheap stuff now and he pointed to my buddies ESP LTD 5 string bass. He performed a bunch of sight, and 'tap' tests (fretting the instruments at differnt frets and looking for clearences in front and behind the fret) and said this thing passed them all in flying colours, including the p/up height. $400 bass and it sounds great.

All this being said..I'll still take my U87 over an ai (for most apps) and my KM84 over a KM184, anyday..nothing romantic there.Just a better vibe. I was just saying to Tbrugh on the phone the other day on how much this old KM84 blows me away, in it's sweet high end..It's like it's always bright enough, but never too bright or harsh..

Cheap gear has been a godsend though. eg, the guy I'm working with right now got a $950 trade in on his M147, which is (was) a complete dog - not just in the sense that it's regarded as a "bad joke" on Neumanns part by some, but the fact that there is something wrong with the mic that hasn't been able to be fixed...He bought a used 460 with a JJ tube replacement for $150, that has been quite good on F vocals so far...

quote:

There is obviously vintage gear and instruments that are irreplaceable and have never been reproduced to the same quality. But the cost of them is often so astronomical, that for most people - even pros - the ROI just doesn't make sense.

Don't we all get romantic about the good old days and the sounds that are more familiar and the times when things first came out sounding just right? Its human nature. But, when we can put that aside and listen with fesh ears, the quote above gets to the issue. A lot of the mass produced stuff cuts too many corners in quality. But, then there are the A-Designs and the Brent Averills and Phoenix, etc. that bring back that personal investment in quality that makes for some very cool new gear. I think there's a fair amount of new gear that's going to become the golden aged vintage gear of tomorrow.

I guess it depends mostly on whether or not the vintage gear gets you where you want to go.

I've got a couple of pre CBS Fender amps...and for my dollar, I cannot find a new amp that does what those amps do, therefore, I keep the old ones around. By the same token, I just had my Mexi Tele redone completely...new bridge, new nut, Had the Duncan Antiquities in it for a while...new electronics (with much better pots and tone cap...), electrosocket output jack (best tele idea EVER)...basically the only mexi parts left are the body, neck, and tuners. I play the everloving hell out of that tele. It is my go-to guitar for just about everything but death meatal. And it's grown into about an $800 guitar. And I really don't feel the need to drop the 5 grand that it would require to get into a truly righteous 50's Tele. So it gets me where I need to go...especially with those vintage amps!

The main reason why (IMO) vintage guitar amps are as valuable as they are is that they are no longer made the same way...xformers aren't avalable for most old amp designs (unless they are custom made, and even then its a bit of a crapshoot), speakers are different, wiring and tubes, etc....they literally don't make them like they used to (with the exception of a few psychopaths who have it figured out...namely Blockhead...).

No doubt about it!

A glaring example is with stomp boxes.
Seems anything old is vintage no matter how it sounds.

I think a of of old guitars just stink, not that there aren't good ones. I was at Gruhn's in Nashville and was just amazed at all of the guitars that I considered overpriced junk. Of course, some of the great guitars of the past have been played in and aged to perfection and there's nothing that can replace that. But there are guitars being made today that are better than anything made in the past.

Guitar amps? I feel both ways. In general, I think it's the way amps are made, not when. No modeller, SS, or cheaply put together amp is going to sound as good or last as long (like a lifetime) as the best amps. During yesteryear, I guess they were all made that way. Today, maybe it's mostly the boutique amps. But I think some of the boutique amps of today are not only as good as the amps of the past but many are superior. Show me an amp of the past that rivals a VHT or a Boogie or a (insert your modern day classic here) all the way around, including versatility and a sound the very specifically suits you. There weren't that many choices way back when.

Mics? I dunno, I never owned a vintage Neumann, etc. But I do know that for home recording I don't need a $10,000 mic, let alone a $5,000 mic, let alone the $1,000 mics I own. I also know that there are a lot of great sounding mics available regardless of price range and that just happen to fit into my budget. In all, I think there are mics being made today that are as good as anything from the past and maybe a lot more consistent.....but they're not cheap, just as a few hundred dollars for a mic wasn't cheap in the past.

Mic preamps? Has there ever been a time with better choices here? We have a choice of preamps from the past and present, some all rolled up into one.

Heck, maybe even old analog machines are romanticized too much (I know, bite my toungue). Don't get me wrong, I loved the way you can slam analog tape and I miss it, but I also love what can be done in the digital domain. Digital has gotten better and so have we. Maybe when it first came out the bigger problem than the format was the users, especially those with little to no experience who thought they could make records at home based on meaningless specs.

In all, I think it is a great time for gear. It's better than ever and way more affordable too.

Gear lust is so era specific...and IMO gear that was designed for a certain sounds best when used in projects trying to capture that era...

Example: A U67 many times really is not the best choice when trying to get a contemporary sound...the hi end rolloff was beyond the playback/recording capacities of the time - in todays's world, that rolloff can be perceived as a dark sounding mic...same with ribbons and the oft acclaimed RE15/16/10/11 mics...rolloff around 15K....

Anyone remember when Brook Mays was selling off TS808s for $7.95? They were trying to 'blow out' old stock for the new TS9...then later they "blew out" the TS9 for $19.95 to make room for some POS digital pedal that no one wants...if I knew then that in today's world, NOS TS808s are about $400 a pop, I think I would have made the investment...

I for one really LOVE vintage gear, because I try to capture the vintage sound...everything that has come out of here in the past several months has gone through 15 or 30 IPS tape at some point as well, trying to get it....

Point? I use vintage gear (or accurate recreations thereof) not because its vintage, but because it gives me the sounds I want...if we were to market as a 'latest technique' studio with tons of beat makers, vsti, etc, we would most likely fail miserably...instead, we look for the vibe of the 40's - 60's, the power and clarity of the 70's-80's, and pretty much ignore anything after that..

Its all what you're shooting for...

FWIW: The WORST sounding guitar I've ever heard was an actual 57 Strat...one of the best sounding guitars was a MIM 2005 Strat...so just cause its old doesn't automatically qualify it as good...like love, we tend to relish the thought of vintage gear, and are often disappointed when it finally arrives.

Ok, so I am a helpless romantic about vintage gear. Yep I admit it. ( I also used to a 1926 Model T Ford, and a 1935 Ford Street Rod). I like the past as much as the future. But I love to tinker with gear.

Dot said:

quote:

And the prices on older mics and guitars [and cars] reflects more of their collectiblity than their actual value as usable tools.

This is very true! While a U47 has a distinct sound, there are many mics available for $5000 less, that have a comparible sound. In the context of what we do in recording, I am not sure the difference is worth the money. As for my Model T? it could only do 32 MPH down hill. It sucked as far as transportation went. Still was cool to have around!

Why do I have vintage preamps and compressors? Well because 1) I can afford them. 2) Because some of my favorite albums were recorded using them. This makes me feel a little more in touch with how those recordings were made. 3) There are plenty of great deals on vintage gear, if you know what to look for. 4) I like to tinker with old gear and make it work again. Kind of like breathing new life into an old product. NOTICE I did not say because they are so much better. 'Cause they are not. Just different.

Most vintage guitars I owned (and that was a lot) were total pieces of crap from a playability and electronic standpoint. I used to have a 59 Gretsch 6120 (think Brian Setzer). These now sell for $12-15K. To be honest my new Japanese Gretsch 6120 Brian Setzer signature guitar plays better and sounds about the same. Last tour Brian Setzer was on, he stated that he plays a mid 90's model more than his vintage guitars. He basically stated, you just need to play the damn things and stop worrying about what year they are. I agree.

That said: anyone tired of thier old Urei or Neve gear....give me a call!

JD

quote:

unless we're Jacl Daniels and can replicate anything based around an electronic circuit perfectly and have all the goods of yesterday here and now, up and running! but not everyone has that kind of skill. certainly not me

Man I wish this was true! How sad... but alas it is not.

I don't know.

I've got used a slew of vintage La3as...including the recapped one I own...and the Reissue I own. The reissue's close. But, it's not the same.

You could surely argue that the difference might not be worth the extra trouble...the extra whatever. But, that's like arguing the difference in a solid clean preamp and the $1k/ch set. How much are you willing to spend/put out/sacrifice for your nuance?

I personally think vintage guitars are jokes mostly. Not that there's not sweet ones, I'm sure...but, I'd say at this point a 1954 Strat is gonna be a crappy play.

Amps? Little different. Who's making the modern day Twin? Not Fender. they SUCK. Not DrZ and the cool ClassA guys--nice amps....very different sound. But, I played a recently cleaned up and recapped 68 Twin--holy shit..."home".

Mics? Again...as good isn't the same.

Heard a demo of the latest VOCE B3 emulator (plugged into a leslie)...compared with the real old Hammond (into the sam Leslie). I did pick the real one correctly, but DAMN...I wouldn't have put money on it.

I LOVe the sound of my 62 RI P bass. How does it stack up to a real 62? No clue. How does it stack up to an American Stadard or deluxe P? It makes them sound like toys. So...there's something great about the old design--even in a modern implementation.

My old Taylor sounds way better than the ones in the stores. Due to actual age/play...or original manfacture differences? Don't know.

I think there's a little romanticizing...but, there's also a real difference. The "worth" of that difference is an indivudal call, I guess.

Yes, we do (me, too!), and it's usually a bad idea, IMHO. Here's why:

Electronics DO NOT 'age, mature and mellow' like a wooden instrument, developing richer tone as they grow old. Electronics simply wear out, leak and create distortion. As Jamie has noted, Neumann's life span for a mic diaphragm is about 30 years ...

Were the units made better back then? Maybe. Unfortunately, time & a bazillion electrons slamming through the matrix take a toll. I'm thinkin, when it comes to semiconductors, newer is better.

mud

I think part of the problem is simply this:

Companies who made great stuff THEN...still hold the patents to ciruits. In Neumann's case, the damn mic grille itself. At the same time, those companies have become big corporate shits who look to squeeze ever pennie of profit for their shareholders. This translates into them cutting corners where it matters---but, no one else can come along and build, say a U87 to 1973 specs because...they would be sued. So, they try to get the same kind of sound through different means. this always sounds....different.

quote:

Companies who made great stuff THEN...still hold the patents to ciruits.

I agree, although patents expire at a certain point.

Some of the electronics issues are also health/environmental hazard related. The EPA/Osha won't allow an American company to make tubes they way they used to....for good reason.

But, all that said, I'd put my Carr or Dr. Z amps up against my old Deluxe Reverb (which I no longer have). I might not get exactly the same tones, but I get comparably great tones. Then again, try to pry the Vibrochamp or my old Guild D25 out of my hands!

I can only think of one area where the "romanticization" jibes with reality for me: amps.

I had an old blackface Fender bassman that I used to blow harp through back in the early 90s and they just don't make em like that anymore. I've tried the newer ones and there's a reason why harp players prize those old bassmans so much.

I haven't really had access to much vintage recording gear. But my experience with vintage guitars has made me think anyone who collects old guitars must be doing it for reasons other than playability.

And these people who buy new guitars that have been "pre-aged" are completely insane, IMO. That's the ultimate example of this romantic stuff getting way out of hand...

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Jacl Daniels:
Man I wish this was true! How sad... but alas it is not.

hey, let me be the judge of that

I'm quite sure people romanitcize vintage gear.



That said, the other night I decided to see what would happen if I ran some demo mixes through my 1978 Kelsey/DMI mixer rather than my usual modern Allen & Heath. Despite having the Kelsey listed in my studio gear, and despite the fact that it's been sitting in my control room since winter, I hadn't actually gotten around to trying anything recording-wise with it. Gotta say I feel like an ass for not doing this sooner. I can only describe the sound as old-skool, and man do those channels ever crunch up nicely on drums when you push the gain! Rather than just hard clip like a bastard like the A&H does when the gain is pushed over the top, they just fattened and crunched up in the most amusing way, sort of like hitting 'em with some Distressor Nuke bus compression. My 5012s can't even do this. The sound was what it was, but I will definitely be using this board for future rock projects. The board is hardly practical and the fixed-band EQ, though I'm sure quite nice in 1978, has its limitations, but it can do some cool stuff--and for the record, this board was only ever intended to be my shitty bar gig mixer because the A&H is too big and too expensive for that kind of thing. The Kelsey must be the coolest hundred bucks I've spent on audio crap.


I've also been getting some real kicks from a cassette 4-track PortaStudio I've had on extended loan from a friend. Again not up to modern standards and obviously limited but it can do some cool things that a modern digital 8-track-whatsis will never touch...and it's still a hell of a great demo tool to get song ideas down!



I don't have alot of "vintage" stuff but I do think it all has its uses. I do think this whole fairly tale "collectors market" is a load of crap. The way prices are set and people romanticize about the stuff you'd think everyone is setting up their own personal frickin audio history museum for an audience of no one. But if I can find amusing old stuff that everyone's forgotten for paltry amounts of money, I say badass.

For me, some vintage gear has no replacements. I recently got a rack of 10 Neumann EQ's. 6 W495's and 4 PE series. Holy C%@p these are awsome. The Massive Passive is a great EQ and Manleys pultec copy's are nice but I would still prefer the original Pultec or my favorite Lang PEQ. On the other hand I just got a rack of 8 Telefunken 676a's and I think now I would rather have new A-designs pre's. Romanticise-yes but somtimes there are no other options.

Jeff

What kills me is some people's definition of 'vintage'....

Look on ebay sometime...you'll see 'vintage' Nehringer, Mackie, and such...or 'vintage' MIK strats/teles...I've even seen one ad (hence pulled a while back) hawking a "vintage" PT MIx+

Now...me? I AM vintage...a 1956 model that has gone thru a complete overhaul by factory trained techs...a couple of parts repaired and/or replaced, recently rebiased to optimal specs...original, no, but still vintage, considered by some to be collectable, nonetheless...

My favorite is the one I saw on ebay about 5 years ago - someone selling an original ADAT with the phrase: "that classic blackface sound"!