Uh, Wireline mentioned race once, and only to make a comparison. You, on the other hand, devoted an entire post to it. Which one is more concerned with race?

Also, where did Wireline mention that he was rich? If you had read his thread on money you might not have felt the need to "lash out" yourself.

Just saying.

JoeJoe...

Seriously man, lighten up...let me clarify a few things for you...

1. Although my finances are most certainly NOT your concern, rest assured I am NOT rich...I am barely middle class...if I were 'rich' I darn sure would not be bragging about, either...and would most certainly NOT belittle anyone for not being that way.
2. Being of mixed ethnicity, it would be pretty stupid for me to use race as anything other than an example of bigotry, wouldn't you agree? Even if I was a white as a saltine cracker, equating anything I said as bigoted was sadly misinterpreted by you...but if it makes you feel better, sorry I ruffled your feathers.

Wow...try and have a discussion, and get slammed across the room...

quote:

Originally posted by JoeJoeMan:
And NO hating some because they are rich is not that same as hating them for skin color, ethicnicty..they are completely different things

Just as a question, how are those two "completely different things?" They are both petty and sad, sad things to "hate" (however strongly/weakly you define/use the term) somoeone for.

Unjustified and inflammatory blanket statements don't tend to go over well here. We like to keep our board on the chill side.

Oh sure pile on now....
And hey don't blame me he brought it up, basically accusing me of being a racist, the nerve of some people's children, but I'm willing to overlook it this time.
ANYWAY THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSE TO BE ABOUT VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS, CAN WE JUST STICK TO THAT PLEASE....
If you have other issues with people of color please take them somewhere else, this is not the place for it, and I'm sure others don't appreciate it very much either, thank you
PS. Combs, I won't even dignify that with a response, other than to say you are a politicaly correct brain washed boyish man, spewing that same old tired and shallow rhetoric about peace and love as if it makes you better than someone else, at your tender age you probably don't realize it yet; how easy it is to see thru people like you, surely you must have more respect for yourself than to make such childish statements.
PSS: were your parents hippies or something or do you just watch reruns of Mod Squawd to come up with that stuff.
So let's just stick to the topic VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS.

Ignoring the Flames.....

You guys aren't using the right Vintage Gear and having it worked on by the right people (a big part of owning vintage gear). There are loads of exmaples of Vintage gear that is less expensive than modern counterparts and at much higher quality and/or VIBE.

I recently bought:
60's Ludwig drums on ebay for less than a new starter set.
50's, 60's, 70's Zildjian Cymbals for $75-$125 each.
A couple of early 50's Trumpets/Cornets for $75-$300 that are MUCH better than my $2k Yamaha

I have played (but can't afford to own) hundreds of Classic Guitars that were in perfect playing condition.
If the guitar is in bad shape, damaged or set up improperly it will be bad....but when they are RIGHT. YIKES.
A friend of mine (who can afford it) has a room full of mostly 50's Fender GTRs and amps and Gibson and Martin Acoustics.
Every one of them sounds unbelievable. The last time I was over there I got play the Jazzmaster and Tweed Deluxe that was used on "Pretty Woman". Fun stuff.

Same goes for Mics and preamps.
Plug an EXC+ 251 into a V76/Pultec/Fairchild and it is a sound that you can't get from anything else.
If I were a multi-millionaire I would pick up a couple of items like that.
I would still drive a Honda.

Oh yeah...
HATE me. I just bought an iPhone

I'm too green when it comes to using vintage electronics to comment on that end. I'm fortunate to be pals with a few guys who have been trading vintage acoustic instruments for a long time. I've heard a crapload of prewar Martins, many of which have been expertly repaired. Most of these guitars have a sound that just is not to be found in a new instrument. I lust after them, but I am not willing to pay the obscene amount of money they bring to own one. My only shot is to run across an old D28 that is in pieces and have it restored. In the meantime, I have a Collings that gets me pretty close.

I haven't heard too many new banjos that cut it either, even when set up well. Gibson did a very nice job with their prewar reissues up through the early nineties. A few people are building very expensive instruments that sound good, but I can't even afford one of those. Mine is assembled from parts gathered from here and there and will get me by just fine.

Whew... this one got real silly, real fast.

The whole bigotry/classism thing really bites. JoeJoe, somehow you've got some wires crossed somewhere my friend. These are all pretty nice guys/gals floating around here. Decent people is what I'm saying, whether you agree with them or not. You're kind of doing some slamming here for no reason that I can see. Some sort of misunderstanding is certainly well underway. But hey whatever floats your cookie Didn't you stir some shit up before? Seems like it.

As far as vintage: You know, I don't know. My thinking on it is from the standpoint of a player - if it plays, I'm ok with it. If it appreciates in value while I own it, well ok. But I'm not necessarily interested in owning museum pieces. will I scout a good deal, yes! I bought a '90s-era American Strat the other day because I felt it was undervalued by about half... but it wasn't outrageously priced where I was going to need an insurance policy on the thing, and it's a good player. So... hmm... I don't hesitate to take chances on a few things though once in a great while - thus my laminated '74 Ampeg

My '70s Goldtop Les Paul on the other hand keeps appreciating in value and I may have to do something with it eventually. I kind of hate the idea of putting it away and not playing it anymore out of fear of the thing getting damaged. That's sort of the downside of stuff approaching "vintage" or whatever is that at some point it becomes a risk to use it.

Romanticise? Maybe. I'm kind of more interested in a player though than a museum piece. I have guitars worth between $2,000 at the high end on the rack and then I have several below $300. I have a '96 Mexican Tele that plays well and is solid that I wouldn't hesitate to go to and have on many occasions. One of those used is like the pre-Ebay days and is depreciating in value, probably worth $150 or $200. I think new they were around $300-$350 something like that.

I've heard stories of guys snatching up the early Japanese Fender Squires. If it's anything like the Japanese custom shop stuff I can see why, there's some very good wood floating around out there. Stuff that they can no longer harvest.

As far as vintage goes, I'm more interested in vintage sound maybe, a decent tube amp that won't go all noisey on me would be nice. Otherwise, eh... I'm not sure what vintage is anymore - I'm hearing '80s is vintage now

I guess I've always been under the assumption that using vintage analog gear was a way to bring the positives of analog recording back into the new digital technology. To that end I see a point. However, I do think that vintage gear is over romanticised when people start buying gear just because it's old. Unless, of course, it's strictly a hobby. It just doesn't make any business sense to spend twice as much on something with twice the maintenence overhead as someting new that does a comparable job. Now there are obviously exceptions but I think it applies in general. Of course on the other hand I do vintage music so I am interested in the new gear based on vintage designs. As far as instruments go, however, I think it's a whole different animal. Ithink the new Gibson dobros sound like crap compared to the older Dobro brand. But I honestly prefer a casino to my friend's vintage 335. So, do I think vintage romanticised, Yes, is over romanticised, I think it depends.

In terms of electrics...Lets talk about this insanity...

Fender vs G&L...Holy CRAP!!! If you can pick up and 80's G&L, you're getting more of a Fender than any Fender post 1966...My two main guitars are a Tele and Strat G&L, which will CRUSH any Fender from the 70's hands-down...

Why do people get hung up on the label?? Even guitar players get sucked into this...Does knowing you're playing a REAL Fender make you feel better thus making you play better...

I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT

i must agree there, I have an old G+L strat, which I the previous owner took the pickups out of and replaced with 2 P90s. it cost me £100 and a friend of mine has twice offered to swap it for his fender USA deluxe.

i know what you mean about labels, but I am SG-bass mad. I have a 1968 Gibson EB-0 and a modern Tokai EB-0 copy, and by god the Gibson rocks the hell out of the Tokai. it cost twice as much and was worth every penny. The Epiphone ain't bad though, especially at £130.

quote:

I have a 1968 Gibson EB-0

Nice! I always wanted an EB-3 myself! The EBs are sweet!!

Didn't Jeff Healey play a strat with a Squire neck? He could play circles around a whole lot of guys playing "vintage" strats from the 50's. I saw him playing live with Little Feat and he was amazing.

My personal belief is that the magic is in the wood and it's the craftsman who brings that out. But some pieces of wood have that extra special kick. You can try 20 acoustics all coming off the same line - 8 of them duds, 10 are okay and 2 have something special. Of course, a minimum of craftmanship is needed.

My uncle taught guitar out of a music stores for 30 years. Whenever the new guitars came in, he tried them all. He played a Broadcaster (pre Tele) and that thing had mojo, we A/B'd it against a few of the new top of the line Tele's in the store and it knocked them right out. However, his acoustic was a factory made guitar that only cost $300 new. He kept waiting for another guitar he liked more... He said every other guitar of that brand sounded mediocre, but this one sounded amazing, and it did. It's in the wood. I'm sure some other Broadcasters sound mediocre too, but his didn't.

I agree about old Dobros, although there are some great new ones being made now that compete but they are expensive too.

I went to an acoustic guitar store and tried out 20 acoustics from big names ranging up to $2600. The best guitar, to my ears was a custom shop Cort for $900. Maybe their other guitars sound crappy but I can say this one was amazing, and because it was made in Korea, it would never get any respect (but the wood wasn't from Korea and the wood got all the respect in the world from me).

I tried out a $5000 dollar Vintage Ramirez Spanish guitar and a modern guitar maker from Holland (can't remember the name) and the modern one was far better.

A friend of mine has an 1920's Gibson F-hole mandolin from his grandpa. It's unplayable because the tuners are so crappy. I told him to change them right away - it's what his grandpa would have done in a flash. He said he's never going to sell it, so then play it! Don't stand around looking at it. I can't stand collectors with tons of amazing instruments sitting around just to show their friends. A real player with a collection to bring different flavors... that's different.

quote:

Originally posted by i.Combs:
...
The main reason why (IMO) vintage guitar amps are as valuable as they are is that they are no longer made the same way...xformers aren't avalable for most old amp designs ...

A mate of mine into 50's hi fi gear just dropped a packet on an amp because he noticed a part number on the back that indicated the transformer was made by an english company (can't remember the name) who drew their own wire.

You can easily talk yourself into all sorts of things when it comes to vintage gear. As a guitarist I'll be the first to admit sometimes an older guitar has a certain "mojo" if you will but not always better. For me with amps I'll take a new one anytime. My '66 Bassman head sounds wonderful for that one thing it does but it has nowhere near the flexibilty and tonal complexity of my newer amp.

I guess as long as people can afford it why not follow your muse.At the same time when it comes to proclaiming a vintage piece of gear is better these type of statments would really better be proved with an AB type test. Whenever I need to test a piece of guitar gear whether it's a cable or pedal or buffer I use an inline dual true-bypass loop. This way I can intantly switch between the sounds. Even better would be to have someone else play and switch. I've found this to be very educational when buying a new piece of gear and comparing to another. Sometimes science is a good thing.

My experience has been that the vintage factor applies to what it is.

As a drummer I'd prefer vintage DW as compared to the new stuff they've put out which has started to slack off in qaulity in recent years.

Amps...I can't think of any reissues taht I've prefered over the original.

Good Example, the reissued Marshall JCM800 the just released...the 1980's model is better IMO.

A couple days ago I stopped by my friend's studio for the first time in about five years. He records mostly jazz and country music but does plenty of everything else. He told me he sold off his vintage Neve and API pres. When I asked why, he said for his purposes, he gets better and more consistent results going through the his Sony console or using Focusrite pres.

He still has his old Neumann and AKG mics though. Not to mention a 2" Studer 24 track deck for analog recording. So he hasn't totally forsaken "vintage" gear. For him it's more of a cost of maintenance vs. reliability issue.

As far as effects pedals go, I've always hated digital guitar effects. There really is a difference because like vintage tube mics, most of the components in the original versions (caps, transistors, etc.) either aren't available anymore or are produced by aftermarket manufacturers. There's some great discussion of these topics on the analogman website.

With respect to guitars, it's a bottomless pit. I think many of the old instruments were constructed with more of a craftsman approach. I mean Gibsons were as much furniture as musical instruments. Same with Victrolas and old RCA TVs. I think DOT's post on the Neumann/Gibson vs. AKG/Fender dichotomy is instructive on this topic.

On the other hand, even the "mass produced" interchangeable Fenders of the 50s and 60s were finished with nitrocellulose, had hand-wound pickups, used military toggle switches, and were constructed with old growth hardwoods. None of these components are available anymore unless you build your own guitar like Gonzo (amazing job BTW) or pay thousands for a vintage git or custom shop reproduction.

This isn't to say that all 50s-60s Gibsons and Fenders are masterpieces. (Hell, the original Esquires didn't even have truss rods.) But they are unique. And of course the person who's playing it has a lot to do with it. Remember Stevie Ray's signature Strat was cobbled together out of pawn shop parts from three different guitars. Not to mention EVH's Franken guitar (a reproduction of which is now available for ten grand or so).

Guitars are just very individual, dynamic, living things. There are $200 guitars that are amazing and $2,000 guitars that are shite. Would I love to have the Derek Smalls collection? Of course! But I want guitars to play, not to hang on the wall.

Jon

Oh, and I agree with JMP, but unlike him, I'd still drive my Nissan pickup instead of a Honda

Lol name the $200 guitar that sounds amazing

Ummm, as I mentioned in another post my Gibson/Epiphone Strat copy, and of course, EVH's (real) Franken guitar. Then of course there's Elliott Smith's Yamaha acoustics and Greg Ginn's lucite Dan Armstrongs. Oops, my mistake- plastic Dan Armstrongs are now considered "vintage."

I used to sell guitars and all I can say say is QC varies wildly among all manufacturers. There are $2,000 PRS flametops I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole and Korean Epiphone LPs that are far better than their American-made cousins. One of the best guitarists I ever heard plays Univox LP knockoffs exclusively.

It's not the guitar- it's the player.

I agree it's rarely the instrument and always the musician.

(and for the record I wasn't trying to be a smart ass because I agree there's alot of cheap stuff that sounds better than the expensive dopplegangers.)

Can't we all just hoard gear/microphones and fear/hate/envy others for their hoards equally?