I've been using multi track acid loops for a while now, Simon Phillips(very Good) and Smartloops(doesn't work with Cubase very well,PITA)
Getting my drum tracks close to what I want has been very time consuming. I usually find a loop that fits the basic song and I use this as a meter to write with. After I'm happy with the song structure/arrangement I add the drum fills and changes. This is time consuming clipping loops to fit and not cause a drop out or meter change.

This is a huge kink in work flow....
Show me the light!!!! There has to be a better way!!!!

I developed this technique simply because I don't know any better. All Ideas are greatly appreciated.

When possible a live drummer is my first choice.

ToonTrack EZDrummer...simple..they come with midi tracks...Add some from Groove Monkee and there really isn't anything you can't build that doesn't sound really good...

In Samplitude, I set the tempo for a tune, map the song structure using markers, load EZDrummer and preview the drum midi parts. I too, will slurp in the basic beats for the whole tune and then start slicing and dicing from there...The other thing you can do is slice up these midi tracks further and mix and match with others using your DAW midi editor....You can also do this with ToonTracks EZPlayer Pro...

Check out the tutorial video at ToonTrack.com ,, I'll think you'll be enlightened substantially!!

Dutchman, check out http://www.drumsondemand.com/

WAV files of real loops and fills by real drummers on real drums. Lots of different genres and BPM available.

For myself I've used Acid loops as well as the BFD program. Anymore I just use a basic beat and pay someone else to do the drums. It's more econimical in the long run.

BFD. for writing it's great. I find the snares have an odd vibe to them though, almost too 'solid' sounding. I haven't messed with any of the other sample packs you can buy though. you commented on a song i put ups in the mmmmmusic station, but for quick reference you can hear it here:

http://www.ryantruso.com/songs/airwolf3.mp3

I find it quicker than using loops. However, if you're looking to do anything more than demo an idea i would always recommend hiring the real deal.

Check this out on EZ Player Pro..I think this is what you're looking for..

http://www.toontrack.com/news.asp?id=128

That's ironic...a resource sucking, multimic'd layered acoustic drum sample set is considered "ok for demos".

Not that I disagree. Obviously, it WAY overkill for demos, IMO. Samples tht are more processed and "ready to play" would be my choice for quick demo work. Be it the Sonic Implants BlueJay samples or the Roalnd SRX01 Dynamic Drum card in my 3080. Stuff that gets the processed backbeat there in a hurry.

I'm surprised how little use I find BFD. Sure--it sounds amazingly "real"...yet, somehow it becomes worse--combining "more real" sounds with less real (keyboard tapped) playing. When the sounds are a tad processed and less dynamic, it matches better with the kinds of beats you wail on a keyboard to get.

Life's too short to do too much drum sequencing, when there are dudes who play the drums looking for gigs. IMO. I use my sounds for communicating my ideas to the folks who can take them and run.

I don't know, to each his own.

I like my addictive drums a lot, in fact so much lately that I'm starting to like it better than the real deal. Definitely sounds better than any project studio drum sound I've heard, even better than some of the big studios.

EZDrummer was OK, too much thinned out & processed & not real enough, it's a turn off.

BFD had it's weird room sounds & kits that I didn't care for & had some unrealistic sound to it.

AD is raw, so you'll need work some, which is great IMO. Also it includes some great verbs & other tools to process the kit right inside of the VST plug. There is a free limited demo, check out for yourself.

I 2nd EZ Drummer. I have them all + all the Groove monkey stuff...pretty heavy investment for me. I am also running it on a Celeron 1.1gHz with 512mb ram and it is OK as long as I freeze the tracks, then go back and edit later...like any DAW based system!

I also have Drums on Demand, Beta Monkey, Smartloops, and Inner Rhythm Studios drum loops....plus I use Leaf Drums, Beatcraft and Hotstepper to program in beats using the ns_kit7 samples...

A lot invested over the last 5 years, and each has it's place. I use whatever it takes to make the track work for me.

What I've found works incredible is using EZD with Steven Slates Drumagog samples...Especially EZD Nashville, the room and OH's are exellent -- sub in Slates wicked ass snares and kicks and you have a seamless blend and wicked drums...

It's really sad that we have to construct music in this way. I recently did a recording for the Tony Awards at Clinton Studios in NYC. There was a 30 piece orchestra and we all tracked at the same time in a huge room. That so rarely happens any more.

I've been fortunate to work with guys that can produce very realistic drum tracks but in the end I still find it a bit fake. There is just something about tracking with a real drummer and musicians playing live together that is hard to beat. I also think that while the proliferation of home and project studios has made recording more accesible to everyone we have lost something in the process. It also seems that the time taken to program a great sounding drum track probably costs more in the end than hiring a real drummer even if you have to have him do the track in a different studio.

The BFD program has proven to be a mystery to me. It can sound really great but doesn't always fit and I'm not quite sure why. Steinberg used to have a plug in called the LM4 that had really realistic snare drums but they discontinued it.

I think I have my next challenge.

Home drum recording on a budget.

What do you think? Untreated basement. Pair of Sm81s (ovhd), 421 (kick), Sm7b (snare)...all through budget preamps and compressors. I could post a track of acoustic gtr/bass/vocal...everyone could program to their hearts' content with whatever sampler, and my tracks with a real drummer and cheap gear will sound/feel better. That, of course is my hypothesis. I've been wrong before.

Maybe I should have to use one of those budget drum mic kits.

I should metnion, as a side note...Steinberg's Groove Agent has great beats/fills, IMO. And awful sounds. I've gotten some really nice stuff using it, enabling the MIDI output, and using better samples to play the grooves. They've since updated GA to include larger (which doesn't mean better) samples. it's like the opposite of BFD, which sounds to me just like a drum kit...yet the beats in it are horrendous.

quote:

everyone could program to their hearts' content with whatever sampler, and my tracks with a real drummer and cheap gear will sound/feel better. That, of course is my hypothesis. I've been wrong before. Wink

Not a fair comparison at all. How about a real drummer with your cheap drumkit & setup and then the same drummer with el drumkit & a sampler?

EZ Drummer is okay, but I usually have to duplicate the snare and open a new instance of EZ, so the snare is on it's own track. There's something about the OH's/Room/Room comp channels in the EZ mixer that just doesn't let the snare pop the way it's supposed to.

I really like some of the grooves in the RMX Stylus Backbeat expansion pack, but the lack of fills makes it difficult to program a whole song. But the pocket of some of those beats is killer - much greasier than the loops in EZ.

Plus, with Stylus, you can alter the beats by moving the midi commands when you import the midi loop into your DAW. The midi commands aren't like general midi. All they do is trigger that little section of the loop. But you can move the midi command to drop snare beats and replace them with hi-hats or whatever - very handy for thinning out a beat for an intro or bridge.

Hey...If I could use a real drummer without having to pay him $100/song and the studio $80/hour, then for sure...

From my vantage point as a songwriter and part-time band-leader, having something EZD has saved my ass...Not everyone has the luxury to pursue their careers with real drummers ann other musicians --- why did MIDI become a revolution then??? This doesn't de-value my worth as a songwriter...

BTW...I re-constructed a drum track that a real drummer did for me using DFH/EZD and the midi samples from ToonTrack and Groove Monkee...This drummer is now in Nashville, and you know what?? The reconstructed drum track was pretty much on-par with this guys track...which says something about how good this guy is...

quote:

Originally posted by dunc:
EZ Drummer is okay, but I usually have to duplicate the snare and open a new instance of EZ, so the snare is on it's own track. There's something about the OH's/Room/Room comp channels in the EZ mixer that just doesn't let the snare pop the way it's supposed to.

This is why you have to bounce each track to its own..then you can slam the shit out of the OH's, AMB's, etc...This workflow is no more tedious than using real drums...

quote:

Not everyone has the luxury to pursue their careers with real drummers ann other musicians --- why did MIDI become a revolution then??? This doesn't de-value my worth as a songwriter...

Never said it devalued your worth as a songwriter. Just remember, if you're not "demoing" your creations for others to record, you're a musician first--songwriter second.

The MIDI "revolution"? Of the 80s? Was about the lack of tracks first...and ego mania second. Now it's just about the latter.

Time is money. I used to spend days sequencing the drums for a tune. If that's not worth the money it takes to get a real drummer to play, I don't know what is. I can't think of anything in the music making process I hate more than sequencing drums. Maybe it's just me.

My response was more toward Codster who said it is really sad that we have to record this way...

...what really was sad was programming drums with that old yamaha RX11 back in '86...I don't think it is sad, I think it is a God-send...

Agreed...sequencing drums sux arse..no question...time is money, but even beyond paying a drummer $100 to cut a track for me, I can't even find one that wants to do it, at all...its not even about money, its about lack of a talent pool and lack of positive attitude. Any good drummer worthy of recording is probably doing sessions in a real commercial studio - or wants more money.

Popmann...if you ever tried EZD and using midi files from ToonTrack or Groove Monkee, you could easily duplicate what I've heard from your website -- at least from an arrangement perspective. You can do a song in an evening or two -- tops...

If your not aware of how ToonTrack EZD works, you have a library of midi drum files that can be anything -- one bar, 1/4 bar fills, two-bar, 8-bar patterns...on and on..and you can slice and dice those further using your DAW to create really unique song arrangements...You just preview a midi section and then drag and drop it into your track arrangement window....it really takes what a songwriter can do and takes it to the next level...

Yes, I'm aware how it works.

I've not heard of "groove Monkey"...I assume from context that they make MIDI drum file grooves? I have been given libraries of MIDI "grooves" over the years...and have never been able to use them beyond just something to pick up the bass and jam to. Organization is the issue. Even in BFD, they have "hardfunk01"..."backbeat03"--do you know how many beats I would have to audition to find the closest they've got? I do hope to use it in combo with GrooveAgent in fleshing out some new material. Right now, it's just funky metronome for bass practice.

Trying to make a usable artificial drum track makes me feel so stupid...even though I only need the simplest of drums. I just want a good country backbeat with brushes or a choo-choo train type shuffle rhythm. I don't need fills or anything. I can never find the exact rhythm I'm looking for in the various drum buffet libraries, and I'm too dumb to figure out how to program it. My next project, I'm just going to get some brushes and my $10 yard sale snare and do it myself. If I can get one measure of my groove on, I'll just cut and paste. At least it will sound like it was recorded with my mics and preamps in my room...not necessarily a good thing, I guess. Might even try the old piece of paper through the guitar strings or stomping a crumpled paper bag or something :-).