Dot, and anyone else with insight...

where would the SE3600 and the Z3300 ideally belong in this chart?

Thanks in advance...btw sweet topic!

Dot, any idea where the AEA R84, AEA 44c, Baby Bottle, RCA77dx, Elam 251 fall?

All the best,

Henry Robinett

quote:

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Dan, do you have this in a large PDF file? I'd like to print it and post it up in the studio.

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I made a .pdf version of the chart for my own personal use. If Dot doesn't have any objections I will post it. Great topic, I look forward to seeing future versions of the chart.

Rocky

Don't sweat the petty things - Pet the sweaty things - Richard Wawock

Dot, just curious...

Why wouldn't pre's have similar characteristics to microphones ala bright/transparent, etc.?

Also, how "dark" would you (and anyone else) rate the SP VTB-1? Had a chance to compare a Grace which seemed more neutral, yet also quite musical sounding BTW.

Chris

Schipa and henry, I'll be adding those mics as time permits. The SE mics would be close to to U195 and the MC012 on the chart. The ribbons are darker. Haven't evaluated the Baby Bottle yet.

bluzdog, as the graph is in-progress and getting changed often, I'd rather not have anyone post PDF files - as it'd be inaccurate.

Chris, preamps don't really go from bright to dark - on that vertical line. Only from transparent to colored.

When I make the preamp graph there will only be the horizontal line for the characteristics.

The Grace is more transparent than the VTB-1. The VTB-1 can go from clean to fairly colored - because of the tube drive.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

Dan, part of the reason I'm thinking this way is due to some mic pre builders and other pro AE's speaking in terms of bright and dark pre's.

For example, how many times have you heard that the Mackie VLZ Pro pre's tend to be bright/harsh?
Or that Neve's and API's are "dark" sounding, etc.?

Realize that this is probably just an exercise by me in semantics and all you guys might be trying to say similar things!

Have to admit that when I hear things like "clean", it's associated with "transparent", and vice versa.

Chris

quote:

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Originally posted by Dot:
Schipa and henry, I'll be adding those mics as time permits. The SE mics would be close to to U195 and the MC012 on the chart. The ribbons are darker. Haven't evaluated the Baby Bottle yet.

bluzdog, as the graph is in-progress and getting changed often, I'd rather not have anyone post PDF files - as it'd be inaccurate.

Chris, preamps don't really go from bright to dark - on that vertical line. Only from transparent to colored.

When I make the preamp graph there will only be the horizontal line for the characteristics.

The Grace is more transparent than the VTB-1. The VTB-1 can go from clean to fairly colored - because of the tube drive.

Dan Richards
http://www.thelisteningsessions.com
http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com

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Dot,

In my humble opinion, a preamp graph should still have a vertical and horizontal...

When I listen to pre's I note two elements- clean vs. colored, and ... I am having a hard time defining this.... narrow vs. wide? Focused vs. unfocused? Sonic footprint? I am pretty sure you know what I am talking about.

When you track with some pre's the image can come from a pinpoint, but others create a larger image... I think this characteristic is independent from clean vs. colored.

what about the ADK Model S, Vienna Edition? Close to the AKG C12, or is it just marketing hype? I think it's less bright and more colored, but then again, what do I know, my ears ain't that trained. A word from you would be very welcome, since I am testing this one at home, and have to decide whether to keep it or not. You were the one to advice the C1 on my voice....I still can get that one instead....

Schipa, I've only spent a very little time with a Vienna, so I can't really say.

George, I'll keep that in mind when I start doing the pre graph.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Del Faro:
Dan, part of the reason I'm thinking this way is due to some mic pre builders and other pro AE's speaking in terms of bright and dark pre's.

For example, how many times have you heard that the Mackie VLZ Pro pre's tend to be bright/harsh?
Or that Neve's and API's are "dark" sounding, etc.?

---

I haven't ever heard pre designers use those terms. I have heard people use something like "harsh" - but that just means cheap electronics.
Have never heard API or Neve referred to as "dark" pres.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

Where would an SM57 fall?

Brandon Daggerhart

Look on the page before, and the page before, and probably the page before Brandon.



I think according to the answers it falls where the U47 is. So you can save yourself about 3 or 4 grand. The secret is out!

-Dusty

Dan, did a quick check over at RAP.

It seems some of the posters talk about how the Neve pre's can sound dark.

There is also an implication off the posts that some of the API and its various clones also sound that way.

Several pro AE's like Alan Hyatt, and Harvey Gerst
have commented on different pre's as being dark or
bright to me.

Certainly I may have exaggerated in that post.
Been told a million times not too!

It would be interesting to get feedback from Lynn Fuston on this graph BTW.

Chris

quote:

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Originally posted by Dot:

Have never heard API or Neve referred to as "dark" pres.

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In the review for the Aurora GTQ2 pre a few Tape Op's ago, Geoff Tanner says that Neve's are dark by todays standards.

-Dusty

quote:

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Originally posted by dusty:
Look on the page before, and the page before, and probably the page before Brandon.



I think according to the answers it falls where the U47 is. So you can save yourself about 3 or 4 grand. The secret is out!

-Dusty

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Suh-Weet! I just got 2 SM57's for $100. I've been needing a couple for awhile now. Luckily I don't have to buy that U47, eh?

Brandon Daggerhart

As I wrote in the U87 vs. ADK A-48 topic, I tried the ADK at the local store, and just loved it on my voice (you have indeed advised me to get a C1, which is to arrive, or an NTK): so, if you know this mic, where does it belong in the chart?

I'd place it between the B3 and the TLM103, i.e. quite bright and slightly colored? What do you say? Maybe what I heard as "warmth" was coloration as well?

Thanks, man!

Schipa, I haven't use an A48 yet, but based on Ivo's recordings it's brighter than an 87. hard to tell at this point. I don't really like to make a call something unless I've used it extensively.

quite bright and slightly colored.. Sure. I'd agree. Not as bright as some of the AKG mics, though.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

quote:

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Originally posted by dusty:
In the review for the Aurora GTQ2 pre a few Tape Op's ago, Geoff Tanner says that Neve's are dark by todays standards.

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I think by the older standards when everything was tracked to analog tape - everything was darker. And the digital medium is brighter.

I would only find Neve's to be dark in that their slew rate is often slow and they don't pick up a lot of detail that some of the newer more transparent pres pick up. But I would just call that "colored". Very colored mic pres like some of the Neves and their emulators like the Vintech Dual 72 are great for sculpting sound in a rock track - for crunching the sound and then throwing out a huge, wide soundfield, but they're very poor at capturing imagery and detail.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Del Faro:
Dot, just curious...

Why wouldn't pre's have similar characteristics to microphones ala bright/transparent, etc.?

---

Because some mics are specifically made to be bright, whereas mic pres only exhibit a degree of "darkness" based on whether or not they're so colored up with heavy transformers that it slows the signal down so much that you're losing depth and imagery over some of the more transparent mic pres. With mic pres: dark = colored. That's not so with mics, because you can have very colored mics that are also bright.

quote:

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Also, how "dark" would you (and anyone else) rate the SP VTB-1? Had a chance to compare a Grace which seemed more neutral, yet also quite musical sounding BTW.

---

The VTB-1 in SS mode is fairly clean, and when the tube drive is dialed in it can go from fairly colored to very colored. The Grace 101 is more transparent in a liquidy silvery sort of way. One of the engineers at The Listening Sessions commented that the 101 sounds exactly like it looks. I'd agree.

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

[This message was edited by Dot on 02-18-04 at 11:56 PM.]

Thanks Dot.