I would love some real advice as I have been struggling.

I have been tring to mix my music to this quality:

http://www.myspace.com/katatonia

I know its not best sound but you probably heard quite a few bands with the strong guitar sound, great bass and fantastic tight?? drums.

Now I use these guys as a reference, I know I wount et my mixes to sound the same, different kit etc however my song (top of list) is not getting close to the quality of that:

http://www.myownsilence.com


Now recently I have realised a few things were lacking, ie cymbols to help it flow better, but its not really my main issue. My biggest problem is obtaining the clarity. I end up fighting with eq which kills the sounds if I am not careful.

I do have a few questions:

1. I saw the high pass at 80hz on every track. Now I wouldn't dream of that. I know they quad record the rhythm guitars, can I buss these guys of and eq them as a stereo set?

2. Drums... How I turn up they over power, I turn don they dissappear, I play with eq and it goes false... and they never seem to be clear always lost somewhere?

3. Lead guitar.. again either really harsh or none existant, I open a space up with the EQ on rhythm but it never really helps.


I have been trying for years to get this right, I recently bought the SSL duende to have a good set of plug ins etc to help. I have some reasonable kit (KRK's, RME etc) but I know I will just keep throwing money at this and end up buying UREI limiters but I dont feel this is the answer.

Please help.

sorry the drums bit makes no sense I ment to say tht they seem to not place themselves in the mix like on the rock stuff I listen to, I find the drums very frustrating.

I use BFD drums so I have some good options here with choices -and I know they are miked up well.. and can be used to acheive close to my aim.

Hi, strangedays. Welcome to Studio Forums. I'm sure others will be along with comments, but the thing I notice is that it sounds like you're using EQ boosting more than EQ cutting.

I'd suggest the first thing you do is EQ the guitar tracks with a narrow Q and cut at 3K - try a 6dB cut. The guitars are sticking out too much and taking up too much space in a vital EQ range that needs to be cleared up for other instruments/voices in the mix. Snare and lead vox are an example of things that need 3K clear to provide space to hear them clearly in a mix.

For drums... get Drumagog. : )

Thanks for your reply.. I'll look at that later... that drumagog looks fantastic.

Well, I'm sure others will be along shortly with a wealth of knowledge, but have you tried the old standby of ducking the bass with the kick? Also, something I like to do sometimes is set up a separate drum buss and crush it with a UAD1176 in mono. Then I bring it up in the mix slowly until the kit starts to focus in the center. This usually will keep the drums from getting lost without stomping all over the vocal and such.

Lance

yea i been trying that... its obviously not working too well! I find it makes the bass bounce wildly though and I loose control of it, too little and whats the point?

However it works well on dance loops.

One of the most important aspects of having clarity is having good transients. Some have them, but ruin them with wrong compressor/eq settings, others don't have them from the beginning.

Could you please tell me more about transients. What are they? And how can you @ruin@ them... I thought transients were bad?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_%28acoustics%29

For example attack time set too short. Pretty much almost any action with a compressor & eq will affect it, that's why wrong settings on these can be crucial for the end result. Also not having enough headroom will eventually corner you.

From what I've heard on your myspace those are the 2 most important things you need to work on.
I don't hear any attack in your guitars, not enough space effects (like verb & delays), again set wrong. There might be something wrong with your monitoring.

would attack on guitars depend on luss distortion? or is there a trick to pull of here?

In the simplest possible language: For our purposes, a "transient" in digital is represented by a "spike" in the waveform. The attack and the release need to be set such that it "grabs" the beginning and "lets go" at the end.

For instance, if the attack is too fast and the release is set too slow two things will happen. The bass will audibly dip in volume BEFORE the kick and it won't "snap back" until too long AFTER the kick. So you end up with the "Boinginess" you described. The idea is to have the dip in volume happen so quickly as to be imperceptible because it is all happening DURING the kick "note." (Not before, not after) DURING.

That make sense?

(However, don't let this stop you from PURPOSEFULLY using weird compression attack/release settings that are "technically" too fast or slow when you are using compression normally. Compression can be far more than just a "fancy volume knob" if you can use it creatively. And never assume two compressors will sound alike with the same settings. There are many types of compressors all with different methods, components (opto, tube...) and in some cases settings you may never have heard of. Like the FMR RNC with the "Super Nice Mode.")

Yeah, the release time when ducking the bass is always the most tricky for me. Now to plug my favorite comp plugin for this. Stillwell Audio's Major Tom. It just seems to have the perfect release time for this job and is one of the few comp plugs with a built in sidechain.

Lance

I probably should also have mentioned: I see a lot of compression "newbies" make this mistake. Don't set the ratio too high either. Set up a compressor for ducking with too high a ratio and it becomes a gate. We don't want to get RID of the bass, just dip it's volume a little during the kick.

(I use the term "newbie" lightly, as I still consider myself a newbie after roughly 4 years of working at a studio)

Usually I tend to avoid ducking by simply by rolling the bass off of the kick to start with. Or in some cases vice-versa. I have only had 3 occasions I can remember where ducking was actually even necessary. (But they made us practice it when I was in a school audio program a lot. That, and key filtering.)

quote:

Originally posted by strangedays:
would attack on guitars depend on luss distortion? or is there a trick to pull of here?

I can't give you a clear cut answer of what needs to be done. It's a combination of things: one thing goes wrong & everything goes downhill. I don't think your guitars have too much gain, but I do think that working with mic placement, amp knobs & playing more articulate would move that recording to another level. After this it's engineer's job not to mess it up, but if you don't have that from the start there is really a little you can do to help it. I think you have some great music, but your recordings would benefit a lot if you could pay an experienced producer to steer you at the right direction.

Thanks so much for the input, really appreciate it.

The guitars to be honest were recorded with a pedal (demonizer with built in analog cab sim). I have an orange amp and decided to mic it up. But with a close dynamic and a distace condensor not sure if I am happy yet. Its amazing how you get such different sounds like micing the back of the speaker cone.. problem is, whilst they all sound cool nothing sounds like my amp in room, which I suppose is what I am after.

I have a few mics -AKG solidtube, SM58, Studio Projects B1, Oktava mk219, Samson c1,

also have a samson q3:
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=110
which seems good for guitar amps? I was thinking of an sm57 or would I be better looking for something else, ie do I need a
Sennheiser e906.

Should the amp be loud and cranked? or can I get a good sound low?

Is amping the answer? Many use these modelling tools... and belive they get good results, would I be better working with them for now to save time or should I be miking the amp?

quote:

Originally posted by strangedays:
I would love some real advice as I have been struggling.

I have been tring to mix my music to this quality:

http://www.myspace.com/katatonia

I know its not best sound but you probably heard quite a few bands with the strong guitar sound, great bass and fantastic tight?? drums.

Now I use these guys as a reference, I know I wount et my mixes to sound the same, different kit etc however my song (top of list) is not getting close to the quality of that:

http://www.myownsilence.com


Now recently I have realised a few things were lacking, ie cymbols to help it flow better, but its not really my main issue. My biggest problem is obtaining the clarity. I end up fighting with eq which kills the sounds if I am not careful.

I do have a few questions:

1. I saw the high pass at 80hz on every track. Now I wouldn't dream of that. I know they quad record the rhythm guitars, can I buss these guys of and eq them as a stereo set?

2. Drums... How I turn up they over power, I turn don they dissappear, I play with eq and it goes false... and they never seem to be clear always lost somewhere?

3. Lead guitar.. again either really harsh or none existant, I open a space up with the EQ on rhythm but it never really helps.


I have been trying for years to get this right, I recently bought the SSL duende to have a good set of plug ins etc to help. I have some reasonable kit (KRK's, RME etc) but I know I will just keep throwing money at this and end up buying UREI limiters but I dont feel this is the answer.

Please help.

I suspect it may start with the mic technique and the recording chain. It sounds like you have large boosts with a software EQ and, if it's not a top notch plug, it will turn most sounds to mush. If you primarily use software EQs, try getting as close as humanly possible to the sound you want with the amp, guitar, mic and pre only. A decent amp, guitar, technique, mic pre and a 57 going through a decent A/D converter should yield good results. That might sound like a lot of things to deal with, but really, if you don't have quality stuff in each of those catagories (including technique) it becomes much harder to achieve quality results. Deal with those basics second... first, train your ears.

You will have to train your ears to hear what a guitar should sound like in a mix ...BEFORE it's in the mix. That is tricky, but all the evidence is there, all you have to do is listen... thoroughly. Make it part of your week... listen to music you want to emulate and focus in on why things sound the way they sound... is there a bass guitar adding to the heaviness of the guitars or is a lot of the low end girth actually in the guitar track? Where does the kick drum live? Are all the lows rolled of the snare...etc...

As far as the drums go, in order to get that sound (Katatonia type stuff) you need a great drummer, a real live kit in a good room. Then back 'em up with samples In metal that is the way to go. I chat with Jens (Katatonia, Opeth engineer and Supersonic Sample user) every now and then and even he uses samples to back up his well recorded drum tracks. He likes to blend snares and kicks underneath the tracks to add consistency and punch. The guitars on the newest Katatonia are nothing special either... accept great players with great gear (Mesa Boogie Dual rec/ Marshal cab and a ESP Viper on that album). Jens is just a great engineer that knows how to get the great sounds. I'm quite sure he got to that level from using his ears, first and foremost.

Thanks so much for your advice, its all been invaluable.

I tried drumagog and used it with BFD and can see how you can blend the samples to much better effect than EQ.

You have all opened my eyes in different ways, I feel more confident as to where I am going with the drums (that drumagog will be invaluable in the future as I hope to go out and record live drums).

My guitars are starting to sound better, even though they still feel a little hollow, my valve amp sound so crisp, but listening is key as you suggest, I just find it very hard to make out there the bass ends and the guitars begin, its almost like they are one.

And I still have yet to start adding guitar lead lines and vocals.

Once again thanks for all your help this has to be one of the best forums for real wanna be engineers around.

(oh and I am starting work in a small studio next week - hopefully towards better things)