The thing that DP excels at is the "Conductor Track". That feature makes me very jealous.

jmp

I never did things like changing tempos either, but then how much of that was becaue it was a pain in the ass to do it? That might be a part of it, because now I have a system where doing it is actually fun--it's so fast and interestng to evaluate, and also to string together several tempo changes as I had to with all of the medleys I was commissioned to write.

"But, yes...MIDI+audio edited together. I don't hink you'regonna find better than Logic for that, FWIW. Certainly not PTLE."

And again, I ask: why not? I've heard nothing but vague gernalizations about how PTLE (and HD) isn't good for midi, but no one gets down and dirty and says why. I wonder if the level of midi stuff I do would be pushig the envelope or not. I'm not doing what Kid does--probably thousands of controller moves which are necessary to ge the kind of realism he needs for string arrangements.

And again, I wonder if anyone would mid telling me the rock bottom differences between LE and HD. I know they exist--I imagine track count is a major one; I imagine that sonics/convertors is a big one, but if I could get as good a sound out of it as I do with my 2480 or Logic both of which seem about on a par to me), then maybe the more streamlined interface of the new 003 Factory would suit me. I do love the integrated control surface, as opposed to adding one on from another mfr.

From all I've read about Digi 003 running PTLE 7.3.1, it seems they have added more MIDI compatibility to make it more competitive with the other DAWs on the market.

I can give a little on the differences between PT LE and HD.

The main difference with PT LE and HD is, HD requires DSP cards to add processing power to the computer via PCI or PCIx interfaces. These cards provide DSP power that can be used for more comeplex plugins processing which are TDM plugins, which I forget what it stands for. TDM plugins are supposed to be better than RTAS and VST plugins.

More tracks are available with PT HD than LE and it depends on how many cards are used in your computer. PTLE is limited to 32 tracks but can be updated to 48 tracks with the Music Production Package.

Protools Le runs entirely native, which means your processor's CPU(s) provide all the power for your system. You can add a Liquid Mix or SSL Duende to help offload processing from the CPU if desired. LE runs RTAS plugins which run in real time. You can use a wrapper to run VST plugins too.

The main difference is the price. A basic HD system will easily run over $10k before you are done and an LE system can run as little as $300 (M-box). A DIGI 003 system can run as low as $1950 (list $2495) and you get a control surface with it that is plug and play after setting your computer up. It looks like a good match coming from the all in one 2480 package that you own or owned.

PT LE has up to 5 inserts per channel and 10 sends per channel. So equating to the 2480, you could run comp or eq and PTLE will allow 3 more inserts per channel. There are 8 aux sends on a 2480, but there are 10 sends per channel. I forget how many busses there are, but 32 comes to mind.

I'm sure there is much more so I'm hoping someone else will chime in.

Rade

Yes, I love the conductor track, as well.

quote:

And again, I wonder if anyone would mid telling me the rock bottom differences between LE and HD.

That one I can take. TDM is hardware. And ALL that implies. You know how you can plug into your 2480 and record through the La2a plug in real time? TDM can, too. You know how you experience (effectively) zero latency on all IO no matter what EQ/plug/routing you have set up? Hardware. Borrow a REAL La2a? You can insert it on a track in TDM. In software, you'd have to route it out and back in, print the processed track, and then shift in time for phase.

It allows full integration of outboard gear with software flexibility. It also does Beat Detective processing faster than apps like Cubase. I've not actually sat with TDM and LE now that LE has Beat Detective availble.

Track count is also different. More importantly REAL WORLD track count. Meaning, you don't run out of tracks because you put one too many plugs on the mixer. You are gauranteed track count. And, configurable up to, what? Is it 64 tracks at 96k?

Plugs are also better...and some exclusively avaialble. It's dedicated DSP for them. Intel doesn't make chips meant for audio processing--these are RISC chips optimized for that kind of processing.

You could take it to a gig and run the whole FOH mix off of it-including FX, recording what you needed to to the HD. It's effectively a hardware mixer/FX processor with software GUI control.

As native processing power increases and they've taken some of the castration out of LE...the differences are lessened. Don't foget how they got the market share. Computers have only bee fit for recording for a handful of years--ProTools always did it in hardware. Remember Garbage's first record was made on something like a 50mhz PowerMac. The only way that was possible was the TDM hardware that actually handled the processing. The 50mhz just had to run the GUI.

I've long said there's a HUGE difference in native and hardware. However, the truth is, it's a difference that most people on the ametuer/small studio front don't "need". That's why you'll get so many people who tell you there's no difference. There's a big difference in the capabilities...but considering what most smaller studio actually do--few tracks at a time...only using software compressors/EQ at mix time...stacking tracks in a way that doesn't require a hard punch over 36 tracks to actually work...they don't SEE the difference.

Sonics? Sure, the stock 96 or 192 IO in an HD probably sounds better than the Digi003...but, it's also got an ADAT port, no? People use stuff like Apogee with both. Plugs sound better. Hardware comps/EQ sound better-although not included in the HD system-just the capability of using them.

There will be no MIDI difference, I don't think. I think softsynths still run native on a TDM box.

As to the differences in MIDI between PT and others...you can record MIDI. Assign channels. Quantize. The editor is little zommable notes in the same window as audio. As of the last version I used, there's no drum editor/mapping...no score editing...I'm not sure if there's a conductor/tempo track...I'm not sure that it will address external MIDI interfaces that aren't Digi's (ie: so if you've got a rack of synths, you would need more than the Digi003's few outs)...I don't remember it being able to manipulate tempo automatically when you timestretch audio-but, my experience would be a few revisions back. There are fewer softsynths unless you use a VST wrapper. And none built in (like Logic).

Thanks, you two--some comments and questions:

"From all I've read about Digi 003 running PTLE 7.3.1, it seems they have added more MIDI compatibility to make it more competitive with the other DAWs on the market."

It had to happen at some point--this has always been an Achilles heel of PT, hasn't it? I'm sure they're sick of losing business to other DAWs becasue they didn't have better midi capabilities.


"PTLE is limited to 32 tracks but can be updated to 48 tracks with the Music Production Package. "

I think 32 could work for me, as long as I still have the 2480 to use for overflow once in a while. These last few projects actually had a high track count, some around 32, but that's pretty rare and pretty specific to what I was working on.

"Protools Le runs entirely native, which means your processor's CPU(s) provide all the power for your system."

I guess I'll have to do some checking to see if my MacBook Pro is powerful enough.

"You know how you can plug into your 2480 and record through the La2a plug in real time? TDM can, too. You know how you experience (effectively) zero latency on all IO no matter what EQ/plug/routing you have set up? Hardware. Borrow a REAL La2a? You can insert it on a track in TDM. In software, you'd have to route it out and back in, print the processed track, and then shift in time for phase. "

I don't understand--I can record with effects inserted in Logic without any noticeable latency. You're saying that in this day and age, people who use PTLE are recording, then timeshifting every track which had effects on it during recording? Who would want to work that way?

"I've not actually sat with TDM and LE now that LE has Beat Detective availble."

I've never used Beat Detective, but it sounds like something I'd enjoy.

"Track count is also different. More importantly REAL WORLD track count. Meaning, you don't run out of tracks because you put one too many plugs on the mixer."

So what you're saying is that with LE, my actual track count will depend on how many effects I'm using?

"You could take it to a gig and run the whole FOH mix off of it-including FX, recording what you needed to to the HD. It's effectively a hardware mixer/FX processor with software GUI control."

"There's a big difference in the capabilities...but considering what most smaller studio actually do--few tracks at a time...only using software compressors/EQ at mix time.."

By 'few tracks at a time," are you saying up to 16? That's what I'd like to end up with, simultaneous recording.

"Plugs sound better."

This may be difficult to answer, but do you think the plugs on the 003 would sound as good, not as good, or better than on Logic? Would I be taking a step backward in sound quality from Logic?

"As to the differences in MIDI between PT and others...you can record MIDI. Assign channels. Quantize. The editor is little zommable notes in the same window as audio. As of the last version I used, there's no drum editor/mapping...no score editing..."

Sigh--no notation software built in either, which is something I've really grown to love although the program itself leaves a lot be desired. But it really is a great way for me to edit midi parts, because I read music better than I read data dots on lines.

"There are fewer softsynths unless you use a VST wrapper. And none built in (like Logic)."

Is it possible to keep Logic on my MBP and just use the EXS24 sampler as a sound module accessed by PTLE (or DP for that matter)?

I'm using Protools LE 7.1, Cubase 4, and Reaper. I really like things about all 3. I wish I could hybrid together one program with all the functions I like. Reaper is really cool for editing drums with the "skip to next beat". Protools has the multitool that is easy to work with. Cubase hase the drag volume up/down function. Things I don't like? Reaper has a weird layout. With protools you are stuck with their hardware (unless you have the M-Audio version which I don't). Cubase doesn't support DirectX plug ins anymore. I can't use my Waves Diamond bundle with Cubase without a DX wrapper.

These programs all do ablut the same thing with subtile differences. I am not loyal to any program at this point.

quote:

By 'few tracks at a time," are you saying up to 16? That's what I'd like to end up with, simultaneous recording.

actually 18, if you use both the ADAT and SPDIF ports.

quote:

I guess I'll have to do some checking to see if my MacBook Pro is powerful enough.

It is.

quote:

It had to happen at some point--this has always been an Achilles heel of PT, hasn't it? I'm sure they're sick of losing business to other DAWs becasue they didn't have better midi capabilities.

Actually, not really. It's why some home Bob&Tims don't buy it. Pros don't use LE. Logic or DP can serve as the GUI for TDM hardware. They can own a TDM system, use Logic to take a project through initial idea phase--working with loops guide tracks, etc...and just save them all as AIFF/WAV, trun around and open them in PT to finish.

quote:

I don't understand--I can record with effects inserted in Logic without any noticeable latency.

You're telling me you are using software monitoring AND you detect no latency? I don't believe you. I've used plenty of computers faster than your laptop. It's unusable latency. Add something like the Waves RenComp or a UAD1 plug and it goes from unusable to absurd. Here's a good one, cause I think you have Autotune--put up your 414. Sing a ditty going through Autotune onto the track. Let me know if it triggers flashbacks due to the weirdness in the headphones.

quote:

So what you're saying is that with LE, my actual track count will depend on how many effects I'm using?

Any native system is built on that principle. Pooled resources. You ask it to process one too many compressors, you take those resources that were being used to stream disk tracks. You can kill that compressor, or you can lose a disk track.

quote:

By 'few tracks at a time," are you saying up to 16?

No. But that doesn't mean that can't happen. I would not assume it will happen out of the box. What's the most simultaneous you've laid on your Logic set up? And certainly I wouldn't count on smooth punching over that many tracks. I personally think punching is a thing of the past anyway, but...

quote:

This may be difficult to answer, but do you think the plugs on the 003 would sound as good, not as good, or better than on Logic? Would I be taking a step backward in sound quality from Logic?

They will be MUCH fewer. And historically, Logic has some of the better sounding built in plugs. I honestly never spent much time with any of them--third party plugs are the only reaon I've ever been interested in software mixers.

quote:

Sigh--no notation software built in either...it really is a great way for me to edit midi parts, because I read music better than I read data dots on lines.

Me too. I don't even read music well, but I can look and get the gist--make my change quickly. FWIW, this is one of Logic's strong points. DP has a notation editor...but, as of the DP3 I use, it pales. Editing on it is awkward. It scores fine if you want to print it--that kind of thing, but the whole dragging notes around just doesn't work like Logic.

quote:

Is it possible to keep Logic on my MBP and just use the EXS24 sampler as a sound module accessed by PTLE (or DP for that matter)?

No.

THere are three types of plug synths:

1-Proprietary to the app.
2-"generic format" that multiple apps can use. VSTi/DXi/AudioUnits
3-RTAS that only ProTools uses.

I meant there will be fewer because a company HAS to support PT directly with a RTAS version for it to work at all. Most of the majors will (it IS ProTools after all)...but, there will be some that don't. You can get a VST wrapper and go to the biggest pool (#2) to buy them. You're just bringing ANOTHER company into the support arena.

Logic's are, as far as I know, all proprietary now. They used to try to compete with all the free and cheapie ware. Now, they just say, if you want the ESX24, you're using Logic. It is, FWIW, one of the best sounding/importing softsamplers I've tried.

I really don't think you're gonna find better MIDI than Logic. Really don't. It's an app MADE for arrangers to blur MIDI/synths/samplers/loops/audio in one homogenized environment.

Lots of pro songwriters still use Logic on the front end of a TDM system. Switching the project over to PT when it comes time to do final overdubs and and mixing. Pretty sure that's how Herbie Hancock works...you know-to keep it real wit da Jazz....

ProTools is KING of comping, FWIW. I mean KING mack daddy. I've been tempted to buy a little MBox JUST to do my vocal comps with it.

Hope this helps.

"Actually, not really. It's why some home Bob&Tims don't buy it. Pros don't use LE.
"

Well, I said it's been the Achilles heel of proTools, not just LE. The fact that the pros you refer to who do use PT are still forced to go with another platform for midi work is probably not viewed as peachy by Digi at this point. And speaking of LE, which is aimed at semi-pros, then every 'Bob&Tim' who doesn't buy LE because the midi is lousy should be considered a prority--many of those guys don't have the $ to buy both Logic and LE, so they make a choice. I think it's only a matter of time till the designers of PT and PTLE decide the choice should be harder for guys like him, and guys like me. They are certainly making marketing noise as if they have woken up.

By the way, I'm not sure what pro isn't also a Bob&Tim&Phil&Steve, etc. Maybe you just mean guys who have someone else buy their gear for them

Not to put too fine a point on it, but:

"Logic or DP can serve as the GUI for TDM hardware. They can own a TDM system, use Logic to take a project through initial idea phase--working with loops guide tracks, etc...and just save them all as AIFF/WAV, trun around and open them in PT to finish."

All this because PT hasn't invested in a decent midi setup? Pretty risky. You're forcing your customers to also buy your competitors' products in order to complete a job, which is always dangerous from a brand management point of view. Some of those guys will inevitably prefer working in Logic or DP and stick with that instead of paying for two or three software packages and dealing with them. Logic's way of dealing with audio may seem convoluted to me, but there are lots of people who seem to love it. You can't say the same about PT's midi capabilities up to this point.

By the way, I am not holding out hope that I'll enjoy working with midi on PTLE as much as I do on Logic. I know that's not likely, but it might be good enough for me.

"You're telling me you are using software monitoring AND you detect no latency? I don't believe you."

Well, here is where my lack of knowledge about what I'm doing might actually be helping me. Here's how I work: I plug a mic into my Tascam FW1884. I insert the plugs I want on my voice, arm the track to record and have at it. I don't notice anything at all--I wouldn't argue that there is no latency, but latency I can't hear is fine with me. I've actually done this quite a bit with by bass parts, more than with my vox because I like to add effects later when it comes to vocals. There might have been one combination of effects on Logic where I heard latency on my bass, but that was easy to deal with--I just dropped one effect, did the track, and then added the effect back on.

But in general, at least with the plugs that come with Logic, I've done it without hearing anything wrong. It's been the biggest and m,ost pleasant surprise when going to computer recording, since I was so scared of it. Maybe the FW1884 is somehow compensating? I don't know.


"What's the most simultaneous you've laid on your Logic set up?"

Not that many to be sure--four, I think. I haven't been recording things like my quartet, and after the frustration of only doing one track at a time on Logic, I'm glad I was never put in that position.

So you don't believe that I could punch in 10 drum tracks all at once on PTLE's 003? That's pretty weak if it's true.

"quote:
This may be difficult to answer, but do you think the plugs on the 003 would sound as good, not as good, or better than on Logic? Would I be taking a step backward in sound quality from Logic?


They will be MUCH fewer."

You mean fewer simultaneous, or fewer to choose from period? There's a pretty huge bundle that comes with the new PTLE setups--I checked it out last night and it seemed like a few things I'd be interested in checking out. I guess I can always buy more. True, not everyone does plugs for PT, but not everyone does plugs fo Intel Macs either.

"Me too. I don't even read music well, but I can look and get the gist--make my change quickly. FWIW, this is one of Logic's strong points. "

Yes, well--having had my feet to the fire doing a lot of notation over the last few months, I can tell you that Logic's notation setup is better than nothing, but leaves a ton to be desired. There are just so many simple, everyday functions which are hidden or even not available that it drives me pettty batty at times. Still, it's the best way to edit a musical part for me.

" really don't think you're gonna find better MIDI than Logic. Really don't. "

I tend to agree, but then, I need more than just midi. I can't deal with the rest of Logic too much longer--I just don't like it very much. I guess it will just be another tradeoff, as long as the midi setup I get isn't completely stupid.

fewer to choose from.

Feel free to let me know how much you want for you logicPro package, if you want to move on.

I've had it up to here with my Win/gigastudio and Dp3/midi setup. The $1k is a big lump in the price of replacing the set up.

When it comes to MIDi and softsynths...I just don't think there's anything better than LogicPro. I agree fully that it's not the most awsome audio editing app...but, I've got no use for that, anyway.

As to the Achilles Heel thing...I disagree. See, there's a whole generation who think MIDI is a foreign language. ProTools is NOT. The fact that someone's gonna spend an extra $500 on DP or $1k on Logic is not of consequence to them. They make their money on hardware--like Apple. They've only recently started to "bundle" their "software" with the Maudio stuff (because they bought the company)...ProTools has never sold software so to speak. even now, they intentionally cut off LE's balls (compared to other native solutions) to entice more people to buy TDM.

And, I know you may think differently...but, when you're working at the level you need a TDM rig...you're not using MIDI for much. MIDI involved in the new Joss Stone? The "beat guy" doing his sequencing on an Akai MPC. It's all keyboard based music.

I've done my whole record (mostly ) now...amount of sequencing?

-Horns on one song.
-Strings on one.

Everything else got plugged in and played. Heck, Havlicek "plays" his synth horn arrangements as audio. Submixes them. Done. With the addition of endless virtual tracks and digital audio editing, I just don't find a lot of use for sequencing...save the things I lack the fingers to play.

It's nice to have initially working out arrangements...but, after the basic gist is down, I'm audio all the way.

"fewer to choose from."

Oh, ok. I can't see that really bothering me, coming from the 2480. I've enjoyed working with plugs on Logic, but in reality I've just found a few that I like and I use them all the time.

"Feel free to let me know how much you want for you logicPro package, if you want to move on."

Ok, I'll let you know. It's the academic package--100% of the features, but it was half price. The drawback is when Logic 8 comes out, you wouldn't be able to buy it for an 'upgrade' discount. I still get all the updates, but there is no cheap path to a major upgrade, unless you get the academic version of it too.

"And, I know you may think differently...but, when you're working at the level you need a TDM rig...you're not using MIDI for much. MIDI involved in the new Joss Stone? The "beat guy" doing his sequencing on an Akai MPC. It's all keyboard based music."

Lol--I don't think you can pick one or two examples and then generalize to the rest of the music world like that. I hear midi every single time I turn on the radio. But then, of course, the lines are blurring a little between midi and using loops that are triggered and then recorded. But for every Havlicke who you say plays his lines live (Not sure why that's any kind of benefit--I play my lines live into a sequencer instad of to the recorder, and it gives me flexibility with them later as the song changes) there are dozens of guys who don't--at every level of skill. Anyone doing film work, commericals, hit records--midi's all over their creative process. Does it matter how much of it is on the final product, if they use it for weeks and months to create with?

"I've done my whole record (mostly ) now...amount of sequencing?

-Horns on one song.
-Strings on one."

And yet you're interested in my Logic package for the midi capabilities?

I'll just say one more thing about this, and then I need to get back to what I'm going to do with my own setup:

"With the addition of endless virtual tracks and digital audio editing, I just don't find a lot of use for sequencing..."

Anyone who thinks that recording a synth line into audio, and then editing it using digital audio editing is faster or better than recording the same thing into a sequencer and then editing it as midi info is someone who just doesn't like or know how to sequence, imo. The tools for editing midi make the tools for editing audio seem tiny and sluggish--look how easy it is to seuqence a line, and then:

completely change the instrument from, say, one trumpet sample to a better trumpet sample, or to a bassoon, or an electric guitar for that matter;

fix the performance by some amount of quantizing--no chooping up the file, beat detecting it, etc--just one undoable command;

Take the whole part up or down an octave or 4;

fix one bad note--no crossfades needed, just drag the note to the right pitch.

I've definitely played midi lines live into my recorders over the years. There is nothing virtuous about it imo--what's the diff if you play it live into the sequencer? But in the second case, you have amazing flexibility if you make a mistake or change your mind, even months later. Plus you have the option of changing the sound to a new sample you might get down the road. MIdi ain't dead yet.

back to me: in the PT world, what's all this M-Powered stuff? More crippled than LE?

We can agree to disagree on MIDI's usefulness weighed against it's inheirent downsides.

It's a neccessary evil for me when it comes to things like strings and horns...and should I ever decide to sequence drums again. I've tried John's method of audio "sequencing"...not for me. I wanted it to be...but, it just wasn't.

quote:

Anyone who thinks that recording a synth line into audio, and then editing it using digital audio editing is faster or better than recording the same thing into a sequencer and then editing it as midi info is someone who just doesn't like or know how to sequence, imo.

+1

I love Cubase for this - setup multiple lanes on the same track and just go over it until it's perfecto or loop a single track and add more info to it. Keep the one you want or blend the lanes. Easy as pie. Create and assign something wild in Proteus as your VSTi and off you go.

I think PTLE has changed a lot and you can go to the following link to see videos of the new features in action. There is one on the MIDI features alone:

http://digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=48&itemid=23994&ref=PT73f

The videos are short, but they show the features pretty well.

Doug,

You know where you can get a good deal on a DIGI 003 system. I think it's $1950. There's an additional ( Music Production Package) package that lists for $495 that will allow up to 48 tracks as well as other software.

I really think a lot comes with the 003/003 Rack Factory packages.

I'm planning on trading in my Sonar 4 Studio and my Roland RBUS card to get the 003 Factory with the Music Production Package for $1795. That all lists for $3000. I think that's a good deal.

I'll probably sell my 2480, but I'm not sure yet.

Interesting Bob--you don't want a control surface too? Anyway, I'll rap with you if I'm going that direction for sure.

"It's a neccessary evil for me when it comes to things like strings and horns..."

Multiply you by, say, everyone in the world who doesn't have access to a horn section or an orchestra. And that would be approximately everyone, save for a handful of recordists. That's why I'm saying that just becaue you don't use it much, Midi isn't dead. Didn't you use it when you wee playing with your B4? That's right, add in all the people who don't have organs lying around too.

I've been checking those videos out at Digidesign, looks interesting. The only thing that really has me concerned right now is monitoring without latency. Luckly, I'll be back in CA next week and I'll have a chance to try out my friends 003 rack setup that he just bought.

All this talk about "strings and horns" is interesting to me. I've used MIDI reasonably successfully for a number of applications (mainly keyboard stuff - some strings), but... HORNS?

Please, someone direct me to a MIDI horn part that doesn't sound like complete goofiness. I have yet to hear one.

Chris

Bandini,

It isn't easy but it can be done if you understand how horns are played and you are willing to work your parts around the sounds that you have.

This is a movie cue that I did. Drums, Bass and GTR are live. The gaps are there for Dialog.
THe horns are a combo of Quantum Leap horns and Garritan.

Kung Fu Spoof music

Hey John - sounds good. But Quantum Leap is like a loop/sound library set, right? Or am I remembering wrong?

Chris