quote:

That's why I'm saying that just becaue you don't use it much, Midi isn't dead. Didn't you use it when you wee playing with your B4?

Midi sequencing...no. My keys are all recorded "live" as audio-including the B4. Save strings and horns.

quote:

Please, someone direct me to a MIDI horn part that doesn't sound like complete goofiness. I have yet to hear one.

I don't think the one I did (on How Far I've Come) sounds like "complete goofiness"...I do think it doesn't sound like a real horn section. John does great horn arrangments--being a horn player...there's always a cheese factor to the sounds, but I get over that quickly enough. Then again, everyone hated the one trumpet line I put in a song's orchestration...I think it sounded fine. So, maybe I'm not the one to ask.

No, I wasn't using any loops.
Quantum is still the best I have heard and it is an old library.

Thing is....you have Staccato, Fall-Offs, Bends, Glisses, Accents, sFz, Fp...it gets ridiculous. You need between 4 and 10 tracks for each 'player'

Go to www.garritan.com and check out their Jazz and Big Band demos. Some of then are terrible. Some of them are VERY impressive.
Garritan's philosophy is to make Sample intruments that can be PLAYED in real time using Controllers.

The new Garritan "Gofriller" Cello is STUNNING (I was on the Beta team and have been using it for a while).

All of that said...
I hate programming.
But I have to do it a lot so I might as well get good at it.

jmp

There are several TDM soft synths. Solid and Virus Indigo being just two of them.

Pop, a lot has changed since your info. Check out the info on Digidesign.com like suggested earlier.

Midi is finally growing mature on PT. It sure is enough for my needs.

But I like most the new additions like the VCA groups, region groups and loop functions. I am a PT user since PT III on Nubus systems, and it sure has come a long way.

About the plugins, TDM (time division multiplexing) plugins are generally the same base algoritm as the native counterpart. Most of them are not really different sounding. The difference is the latency and the ability to use them while recording thanks to the TDM architecture.

Another difference is the bus architecture. LE is 32 bit float, while HD is 48 bit fixed. To me, HD sounds a lot better, ymmv.
In general HD is just a lot more robust and professional.

You know, it's funny - I took up sax again recently (after not having played for about 20 years) and it's coming along slowly, but when I contemplate the tedious insanity of programming accents, bends, etc., I find myself wondering if it still wouldn't be easier and less time-consuming to just learn to actually PLAY the damn horns.

Chris

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I find myself wondering if it still wouldn't be easier and less time-consuming to just learn to actually PLAY the damn horns.

Yes, it would (speaking as a former trumpet player) - unless you can't (play the horn, that is).

mud

I do play and often I will use a mixture of the two. I don't have a Bass Trombone or a Bari Sax and those two Instruments are very good in the Quantum Library.

If you can play ONE of the Horns, that goes a long way to making the Samples sound better.

Here's another one. A work in progress for an animated Movie. The Horns are all samples still because the Key isn't set in stone yet.

Garritan Jazz and Quantum Leap again:
another Horn Clip

Drums are Live plus a Minimoog

Thanks for the clips John. I can see how for the stuff you're doing, samples would work. And you incorporate them well.

I have a hard time envisioning MIDI horns working for anything other than brief stabs and hits though.

Although maybe that's mainly what people are using them for.

Chris

I'm looking forward to hearing your stuff, John!

"quote:
That's why I'm saying that just becaue you don't use it much, Midi isn't dead. Didn't you use it when you wee playing with your B4?

"Midi sequencing...no. My keys are all recorded "live" as audio-including the B4. Save strings and horns."

I think you're just using an invalid definition of midi to make your point. When we talk about a program's midi capabilities, that definitely includes what you did: finding, editing and recalling the sound; and then triggering it with a midi keyboard or guitar or some other controller. Whether it then goes into audio or as midi data that you later convert to audio is irrelevant: you press "record" either way. At that point, when you've got it either recorded or sequenced and you decide you have to do some editing...that's when a great midi program beats the pants off a crappy one.

I can tell you that keyboard is my main instrument. When I hear someone for whom it's not saying "I just play it live and never touch it," I always assume that the part is either terribly simple or that they are too easily satisfied.

"
I have a hard time envisioning MIDI horns working for anything other than brief stabs and hits though."

Stabs, hits and orchestral brass--there are three useages most of us will admit are done quite well using midi-triggered samples. Isn't that quite a bit? Ominous low horns in a filmscore--you'd never know the difference if it's played well. I'm not arguing for or against midi, but if you're basing opinions of how it sounds on all the imitative pop stuff in the '80s, your data is dated.

By the way, another purpose it serves is to flesh out a smaller horn section--I just did a track where there were already two trumpets and two saxes, but we wanted a bit more bottom. Feathering in a bari part was a snap, and though we didn't end up using the horns, I can tell you that it worked well.

quote:

I'm not arguing for or against midi, but if you're basing opinions of how it sounds on all the imitative pop stuff in the '80s, your data is dated.

As I said, I use MIDI all the time, and I find it tremendously useful. This isn't the old "is MIDI good or not" argument.

I have not found MIDI tremendously useful for horns, however, although I can see how it would serve a purpose for the kind of film score stuff John is doing. And possibly for the "add one MIDI horn to several other REAL horns" application.

But for actual playing? Single lines? Swelling Stax-style horn sections? Riffs and and phrases that aren't buried in other sounds, but are in your face the way horns usually are in pop/rock/soul/blues/jazz/etc.?

Anyway, I haven't heard it yet. Although I'm eager to hear anything anyone has to share. Doug?

(Sorry Jamie - you know I love your music, but I was one of the guys who thought your MIDI horns on that one tune were just too cheesy to live...)

Chris

Actually, I run the B4 as a stand alone app. Not as a plug in. Same with pianos in Gigastudio. They both turn the PC into a software synth. No sequencer. Midi communications, sure--never had an issue with that.

quote:

When I hear someone for whom it's not saying "I just play it live and never touch it," I always assume that the part is either terribly simple or that they are too easily satisfied.

A little of both here, then.

quote:

Please, someone direct me to a MIDI horn part that doesn't sound like complete goofiness. I have yet to hear one.

Chris

You'll be pleasantly surprised ....

Hey guys, thought i'd throw this out there! Just curious, why don't more of you use Sonar? I use PT but learned DAW tech on Sonar so i have a tendency to go back to it. Eventually, i'd like to be comfortable on all the major DAW's so; you won't hurt my feelings - be totally honest about Sonar. Fire away!

Or the player is actually good. You know back in the OLD days you had to actually play keyboards.

I just had someone in for an overdub. He used a Laptop and played Logic Organ "live" and I just recorded it as audio. And I 'never touched it"

quote:

When I hear someone for whom it's not saying "I just play it live and never touch it," I always assume that the part is either terribly simple or that they are too easily satisfied.

"Or the player is actually good. You know back in the OLD days you had to actually play keyboards."

Good point, but remember I said when it's someone whose main instrument isn't keyboard, so that's unlikely. Like I said--it's my main instrument and I love to play, and I still tweak my work when I'm recording, unless it's an acoustic piano part (done a few punch ins on that one, too). As an arranger, I often listen to playback and hear how two parts can work together better than they were played--maybe we need one voice to be a little more dominant in a chord cluster, in order to set up the next measure of melody. Just slip in and boost that tone a bit. Why on earth not?

So now I'm in the phase of reading a lot of ads and thinking over varius systems. I'll have my hands on a new PTLE setup next week, but in the meantime I was checking out Mackie's Tracktion. I'm not sure a one-screen interface is best for me, but what have you guys heard about this new version, Tracktion 3? The demos online look interesting, and I've alreays respected Mackie's innovation.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzooo:
what have you guys heard about this new version, Tracktion 3? The demos online look interesting, and I've alreays respected Mackie's innovation.

It's a great program (T2 is, that is, and T3 will be even better)....but I don't think it will suit your midi needs. That'd be my best guess. Also, it doesn't do notation...do you want that?

For you, it would make an awesome scratch pad, but if you are doing major tweaks of midi, and you want notes to read (rather than a piano scrollbar), I'd look elsewhere.

Edit: that said, get the T2 demo and see what you think (T3 won't be a major change of most functioning...just a few key refinements).

I'm glad this turned into a useful discussion
I know my decision may seem a little stupid in the light of the conversation but I plumped for Logic... I realise that some people have cited downsides but I don't fear that I'll lose out by not having certain features... perhaps at the sacrifice of ease-of-use... still... it's a long term investment so hopefully I'll get to grips with it. Should arrive soon
Now just gotta work out if I want that Apogee Minime...
Thanks all... and let the discussion continue!

Best of luck, Canopus! I recommend logicprohelp.com for support--some great people there.

"Also, it doesn't do notation...do you want that?"

Yes, sadly I do--which means that PTLE seems less attactive for the same reason. Then again, there are standalone programs for that--I don't know enough about getting two programs to talk to each other, but I'm sure it's not as elegant as only using 1.