quote:

Originally posted by craigmorris74:
Just curious, where is this studio located?
Craig

Just across the state line in Washington.

quote:

Originally posted by Bazz:
This is a bummer. You should at the least, have rec'd a few mp3's asking "are we on the right track?" Pretty common stuff.

That's what I thought, and what I've been pushing for for weeks now.

quote:

I've given money upfront to the studio we're tracking in, but this was usually just good faith and I could have just as easily walked in, setup and recorded w/o any money down, as at the end of the day, the studio holds the masters until paid in full.

That was the original deal (that I paid 10% down and the rest on delivery), but when it was suggested that I pay half down to show good faith on my part, I didn't really put up a fuss over that, because, in my web design work, I do business the same way: half when I start, and half on delivery.

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the supah dupah secret EQ settings is just laughable, if it wasn't for you getting taken by this guy.

The engineer (who the producer claimed had the "secret" EQ whatevers) was as baffled as I was about that, too.

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I think it's time for you to raise your level of vexation with this knob and say "i've asked around, talked to over a dozen "producers" and you're the only one with these F&^#UP excuses. I've already contacted my lawyer, now give me my masters or money back, NOW!"

That's about what I did, and, boy, oh, boy, did things start changing. Once the producer realized that I knew that I had all the power in this, I started seeing some results. Now, I just gotta get them to sign my contract. If they refuse, they'll either give me my money back or see me in court. Period.

quote:

Good luck.

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by tbrugh:
If it were me, I'd want to get my money back, end the business relationship with the asshole and go somewhere else. Besides the bullshit he's feeding you, he's cancelled 10 sessions? I'd fire his butt. Or, get the masters as is, and some of your money back. I assume you paid in full for a finished product.

With all his secret voodoo, did he have to blindfold you when you were there tracking?

Sorry to hear you having to go through all this. This is not the norm at all.

Steve

Thanks for the reply, Steve! I kinda knew that it wasn't normal, but I wanted to get some other opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronan Chris Murphy:
Tough to comment on too much with out knowing all the details and getting both sides of the story, but if things are as you say, all the answers you got are silly.

I recommend you contact a local attorney. Then contact the producer and tell him you want to schedule a meeting so the three of you can discuss the situations. You can also ask the producer if he would be interested in refunding your money and full and ending your professional relationship as a way to resolve the situation.

I recommend that you stay VERY professional about everything. Take the high road. If you are getting jerked around there are options available to you.

Thanks for the advice! I spoke to the engineer today (like I've mentioned in my other replies), and we have a meeting scheduled for early next week. I will be bringing a contract that my lawyer drew up for me for me, the engineer, and the studio owner to sign. I am not working with the producer anymore. I've had enough.

I've kept records of everything, so, no matter what they try, I will get my money back, if it comes to that. With any luck, it won't, now that the producer is out of the picture.

quote:

Originally posted by Madguitrst:
I think these guys are being too easy.
You have been ripped off, period.
You must take action now - this person could disappear at any time.

I wondered about that... which is why I've kept records of everything and got an attorney to look over the contract I was given (and refused to sign).

quote:

Okay, the reality is that there might not be anything you can do (short of whipping ass or at least showing up with the threat to do so).

However, that doesn't mean he knows that and you sould make every attempt to threaten legal action using every resource available to you.

That's exactly what I did, and the tune changed dramatically once he realized that I knew I had all the power in this situation.

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First, I would do some homework about him and your rights.

I would contact an attorney and seek advice, and if nothing else, pay someone to write a letter if you aren't up to it. Idaho Consumer Protection Law Firms

I would send this guy a certified letter threatening him with the Better Busness Bureau (BBB), Federal Trade Commission (FTC), Bureau of Consumer Protection, National Bureau of Consumer Affairs, and your state agencies (Every state has agencies for the protection of consumers. All it took was a couple of minutes to find out a few options for Idaho, which are listed below). I'd also mention the IRS for good measure.

Idaho Consumer Protection Manual

Idaho Comsumer Protection Act

Idaho RUles of Consumer Protection

Thank you for the links! I've saved them for future reference, should this upcoming meeting not go the way I want it to.

quote:

Don't wait another minute.
Don't assume he will come around and do the right thing.
Take action and be determined, authoritative, and downright mean if you have to.

Don't feel up to it?
PM me all of his information and I'll draft you a letter.
This guy's a scum bag - don't let him get away with it.

I'm sorry to respectfully disagree with Ronan on this one - you aren't dealing with a professional (unless you mean professional con-artist).
Take the road that will have the greatest chance of getting your money back - you don't want to work with this guy.
BTW, I hope your material is copyrighted.

Yes, I copyrighted my material before contacting any studios. I've been ripped off before for less money, so I've lived and learned to protect my behind. (Cast iron butt plates in the form of attorneys and contracts. Heh.)

You've all been a huge help to me! Thank you so much!

Charity

Hi, Charity--

First of all, good for you for taking the adivce here to heart and doing the best you can to move on it.

Call me cynical, but I'd like to suggest that you be prepared for an insight you haven't thought of: you are still dead center in the middle of a scam, and the engineer is probably in on it.

Any engineer who would work with this producer would have to be in on the scam. No one works for several months on 'the bass' or 'the drums' or any of it. It is all a big lie. You're on a forum here with people who do this stuff for a living--a mix of a song usually takes 5-10 hours, period. I can take longer if it's really complex, but if the song was well-played and well-recorded in the first place then I think that's rare.

I know on the phone he sounds compliant and contrite and so on--what you're describing is how anyone would behave when they think they're about to be busted: "Goodness, I had no idea!" Really? Then what the heck has *he* been doing for the last 6 months?

Expect some variation of the following:

1. Your meeting will be cancelled and rescheduled indefinitely;

2. If you do meet with 'the engineer' it might not even be a real engineer but a friend they've asked to pretend;

3. If you do present them with a contract, they will want to take it and study it--they won't sign it, not ever. No one in his right mind, guilty or not, would ever sign a contract that holds them responsible *after* they have ripped you off. They have zero reason to sign it--all it would do is to guarantee that you had more legal ammuntion to bust them FOR WHAT THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE TO YOU. What do they risk by refusing? No court of law would punish them for not signing a contract after you refused to sign theirs and especially after 6 months of 'work' has already occured.

Your overly trusting and naive nature (at least in these matters) is still getting in the way--after 6 months of being ripped off, you're talking as if the tide is turning, based on a single phone call with a man you've probably never met--right?

Go to the Better Business Bureau and report this scam operation. If you want to wait till the meeting gets 'rescheduled' or until you sit in a coffee shop and the 'engineer' tells you again how shocked he is, and you still leave with out ever hearing the music you paid for in full, then wait. But then go.

The only reason I did not jump straight to the conclusion that this is a scam is mainly because $3500 is a lot of money to loose, but its really not that much money to make a 5 song EP, especially one where the producer would develop the material for the artist.

I know that for me personally if I was to try and do a project like this for that budget, it would have to be bumpable and just done is spare time. Of course I would make that very clear to the artist.

If this is some kind of scam, it seems crazy to orchestrate a scam that could get them in legal trouble and at the very least hurt the rep of the studio in a small market for the amount a medium sized studio could bill in one or two weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzooo: Call me cynical, but I'd like to suggest that you be prepared for an insight you haven't thought of: you are still dead center in the middle of a scam, and the engineer is probably in on it.

Any engineer who would work with this producer would have to be in on the scam. No one works for several months on 'the bass' or 'the drums' or any of it. It is all a big lie. You're on a forum here with people who do this stuff for a living--a mix of a song usually takes 5-10 hours, period. I can take longer if it's really complex, but if the song was well-played and well-recorded in the first place then I think that's rare.

I figured he was in on it. I asked him - before I told him what ticked me off - if I could come into the studio and hear those songs. He said that it wouldn't be a problem. I hadn't told the producer what ticked me off, either, and still haven't, though I assume he knows by now. I'm not operating under the delusion that, just because the engineer seemed surprised by what I told him that he was, in fact, surprised by it.

quote:

I know on the phone he sounds compliant and contrite and so on--what you're describing is how anyone would behave when they think they're about to be busted: "Goodness, I had no idea!" Really? Then what the heck has *he* been doing for the last 6 months?

Expect some variation of the following:

1. Your meeting will be cancelled and rescheduled indefinitely;

2. If you do meet with 'the engineer' it might not even be a real engineer but a friend they've asked to pretend;

3. If you do present them with a contract, they will want to take it and study it--they won't sign it, not ever. No one in his right mind, guilty or not, would ever sign a contract that holds them responsible *after* they have ripped you off. They have zero reason to sign it--all it would do is to guarantee that you had more legal ammuntion to bust them FOR WHAT THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE TO YOU. What do they risk by refusing? No court of law would punish them for not signing a contract after you refused to sign theirs and especially after 6 months of 'work' has already occured.

Your overly trusting and naive nature (at least in these matters) is still getting in the way--after 6 months of being ripped off, you're talking as if the tide is turning, based on a single phone call with a man you've probably never met--right?

No, I've met him six or seven times. But always in the company of the producer, who told me not to say anything to the engineer because he wouldn't know anything about it. I believed him because I didn't have any reason not to. Now, I know a few more things about this producer, the company, and the people I am dealing with. Considering that they all own houses in the area and have local jobs, have wives/girlfriends/kids... I don't think they are going anywhere....

What I DO think is going on is that they are pretty new to this, and they needed my money for something, spent it, and no longer have it. None of that is really my problem. They seem to have three or four local artists for which they have recorded demos/EPs and that they represent locally. I don't think that they have enough experience with someone more... serious... about her music career, who knows what's what and won't just take their word for it.

They recently had a talent search contest at a local bar that was advertised on radio, and that doesn't come cheap. I'm betting that that is where my money went. But, now that they have other artists, and considering what this idiot producer told me... I would rather just get my money back. If they don't have the money to give back and agree to give me what I want MY way with MY contracts... then I don't see a problem with getting what I paid for in, say, a month.

If they try to resist in any way, they will be sued. It's pretty simple formula, I think.

quote:

Go to the Better Business Bureau and report this scam operation. If you want to wait till the meeting gets 'rescheduled' or until you sit in a coffee shop and the 'engineer' tells you again how shocked he is, and you still leave with out ever hearing the music you paid for in full, then wait. But then go.

Oh, I will. If things don't go the way I want on Tuesday, they won't know what hit them.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronan Chris Murphy:
The only reason I did not jump straight to the conclusion that this is a scam is mainly because $3500 is a lot of money to loose, but its really not that much money to make a 5 song EP, especially one where the producer would develop the material for the artist.

I know that for me personally if I was to try and do a project like this for that budget, it would have to be bumpable and just done is spare time. Of course I would make that very clear to the artist.

If this is some kind of scam, it seems crazy to orchestrate a scam that could get them in legal trouble and at the very least hurt the rep of the studio in a small market for the amount a medium sized studio could bill in one or two weeks.

That's what I was thinking. But, I'm pretty sure that they've spent my money and don't have it to give back to me. So, my options are: force them to give me what I paid for in a timely fashion or sue them for the money I spent, legal fees, time, and gas spent running to the studio and to rehearsals. I'd rather like to avoid suing if at all possible, so I hope that things go well Tuesday.

":If this is some kind of scam, it seems crazy to orchestrate a scam that could get them in legal trouble and at the very least hurt the rep of the studio in a small market for the amount a medium sized studio could bill in one or two weeks."

Well, SixString's last comment is what scammers count on: they would rather avoid suing if at all possible, and they harbor hope that it will turn out for the best. Small scams are far more prevalent than large scale, Enron-style scams for this reason. $3500 is a relatively small amount of money, probably less than it would cost to sue them, and they count on people giving up, letting go, or being strung along until it doesn't even matter anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzooo:
":If this is some kind of scam, it seems crazy to orchestrate a scam that could get them in legal trouble and at the very least hurt the rep of the studio in a small market for the amount a medium sized studio could bill in one or two weeks."

Well, SixString's last comment is what scammers count on: they would rather avoid suing if at all possible, and they harbor hope that it will turn out for the best. Small scams are far more prevalent than large scale, Enron-style scams for this reason. $3500 is a relatively small amount of money, probably less than it would cost to sue them, and they count on people giving up, letting go, or being strung along until it doesn't even matter anymore.

Well put Jazzooo..And as Paul Harvey would say.." And now, you know the rest of the story"

Originally posted by Ronan Chris Murphy:
If this is some kind of scam, it seems crazy to orchestrate a scam that could get them in legal trouble and at the very least hurt the rep of the studio in a small market for the amount a medium sized studio could bill in one or two weeks.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Just to be clear: I was thinking along the same lines.

Gotta say--they are obviously not concerned with their reputation to begin with! Look at her comments again and tell me if that is a description of a legit business: "give us your money upfront, and 6 months later (!) we still won't let you hear a note until we think it is ready; and by the way, the reason it's taking so long is that we have secret EQ that we don't want you to steal." I'm not sure why it seems such a stretch that it would be a scam. Have any of us visited the 'studio'? Has sixstringlass?

Or did she visit *a* studio, completely unrealted to this project in reality? I could book an hour at any studio in the world as a producer and bring my client there, telling her I'd be doing the work on those premises.

Gotta think like a crook to catch one.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzooo:
Gotta say--they are obviously not concerned with their reputation to begin with! Look at her comments again and tell me if that is a description of a legit business: "give us your money upfront, and 6 months later (!) we still won't let you hear a note until we think it is ready; and by the way, the reason it's taking so long is that we have secret EQ that we don't want you to steal." I'm not sure why it seems such a stretch that it would be a scam. Have any of us visited the 'studio'? Has sixstringlass?

Or did she visit *a* studio, completely unrealted to this project in reality? I could book an hour at any studio in the world as a producer and bring my client there, telling her I'd be doing the work on those premises.

Gotta think like a crook to catch one.

I see your point. I'm pretty sure that I was at THE studio, and have recorded there, as I did the scratch vocals and guitar and some finalized vocals there in the 5 sessions that WEREN'T cancelled. I mean, it's attached to the engineer's house... something else I didn't know when I contacted the producer.

It wouldn't be hard for me to take the leap from believe they are just ignorant dingleberries with a high-tech computer who don't know that, if you promise a client a full refund you better not spend the money... to full-on scam artists. I'm halfway there already. I would really like to hope that I am wrong about this being a scam; I'd rather think that they are the ignorant ones and not me. Heh.

The limit for small claims court filings in the state of Washington is $4000. You pay a small filing fee, they either show up or not, but you do with all your information. Most people think that small claims has no teeth, because they don't go get the money for you... but the court order does, if you win you call the sheriff's department, they meet you at the studio and collect for you, Money, or even recording gear ( at the used value ) . Believe me, they will come up with the money!

Best of luck,
Michael

Probably a lot easier to win a contract dispute if there was a contract, though.

6 String--how did it go on Tuesday?

Actually, it didn't happen. I got so stressed out from dealing with the whole thing that I came down with something and was too sick to go. I've re-scheduled it for 1:30 this coming Saturday at a neutral location near the studio. I will post what happens regardless. I suspect it will be more BS.

Thanks for your concern! I really do appreciate everyone's advice and input.

6string--

I sense that things might not have gone as you'd hoped, but you're hesitant to pop back on here and talk about it for fear of hearing "I told you so" or something to that effect. I hope I'm wrong and that you're just so in love with the final tracks that you can't bear to stop listening long enough to type to us. But seriously, I hope you're not worried about what we think--everyone has fallen into traps before, perpetrated by either incompetent or unscrupulous people. I hope all is well on your end.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzooo:
6string--

I sense that things might not have gone as you'd hoped, but you're hesitant to pop back on here and talk about it for fear of hearing "I told you so" or something to that effect. I hope I'm wrong and that you're just so in love with the final tracks that you can't bear to stop listening long enough to type to us. But seriously, I hope you're not worried about what we think--everyone has fallen into traps before, perpetrated by either incompetent or unscrupulous people. I hope all is well on your end.

Sorry I haven't replied. I've just been busy.

Things didn't go quite the way I wanted. I wanted my money back. I finally got an admission that they don't have it. They spent it, but they won't say what on, and I suppose that's their right.

The producer denied everything he told me, and called me a liar for saying he said it. But, since they're flat-out telling me they don't have my money anymore, I don't see any choice but to force them to give me what I paid for: a 5-song EP done to my standards.

The engineer finally sent me one of the songs last week. To say that it is screwed is an understatement. The drums sound TERRIBLE... they sound fake... and, worst of all, they are NOTHING like was discussed when we talked about what the songs would sound like. They are using scratch vocals that were done in one take and not warmed up and then auto-tuning the hell out of them making me sound robotic and then claiming that I just "suck" and the auto-tuning is necessary... even though I have records showing when I was in the studio and what we did in those sessions, and we recorded several other vocal tracks for the same song that were warmed up and ready.

To top it off, I brought them a contract prepared by my lawyer, and they said that it would never work but refused to say why and refused to sign it. Then, after negotiating with them, they agreed to sign a contract that included five clauses from my contract that I felt were non-negotiable. These clauses would be grafted into their contract.

Except they keep sending me the same, unedited contract, and everytime I send them mine, they claim that they couldn't open it and ask me to resend it.

So. Yes, I am an idiot. And I can't get out of this short of suing them. They refuse to give me all my money back, claiming that they've already spent more than 60 hours on my recording (I was only in the studio for 9.25 hours, andyou can hear their handiwork here... it sure doesn't sound to me like they've spent anywhere near that long on this... but I can't prove it.

So. Yeah. I am screwed.

Thanks for all your advice. I think the only thing left for me to do now is start small claims proceedings. Oh, well.