Thought I'd edge in on Dusty's last Elliott thread, but the self titled Elliott Smith album may be the best thing I ever heard. Don't just listen to me. I read customer reviews at, I think, Amazon. There were something like 64 reviews, none under 5 stars that I saw.

This thing is life changing for me because he is doing something my instinct tells me...

Shit, there is no way to really explain why it's life changing for me. But, my music will likely be a lot better.

Name one other artist that people that "have heard it all" feel such a need to tell their friends about as Elliott. I have everything jazz, country, rock, thrash metal, folk and oldies in my collection... And Elliott deserves his own section more than any genre.

You just can't dismiss Elliott without giving one of his albums a few spins. He is far too important.

And Tao is proof that you don't have to be 20 year old scragler to get in to Elliott. And Tao got in to Elliott's roughest album!

And what is more amazing about Tao's comments is Elliotts self titled album is probably his least respected. XO is considered his big "break through"... I personally think XO is his worst (95% of Elliott fans seem to think it's his best). The self title is really Elliott's first album, Roman Candle is an EP that he recorded with 1 radio shack mic into a cassette player under the steps in an apartment building! Even his friends and family in Texas didn't hear it until after the self titled album. Some of us think we get great sound with the tools we use... We have nothing on Elliott!

My favorite ES album besides his last is Either/Or. It's production is slightly better than the self titled album with the songs slightly "more together", IMHO.

One of my favorite things about Elliott is he doesn't waste your time. He starts the song singing and doesn't repeat himself even if that means the song ends under 2 minutes and has only 1 verse with 2 bridges and 1 chorus... The music is so free from templates but still very catchy. For this reason it takes a lot more than one listen to fall in love. You won't be singing along untl 5-10 listens because he isn't going to sing some stupid catch phrase for 2 minutes of a 4 minute song with 2 guitar solos.

His best produced album is by far Figure 8. He has that awsome George Harrison Country Gent lead tone and he really captures the Beatles vibe. His last album kind of has similar production, but not pulled off as well.

My favorite performance of Elliott's is his cover of the Beatles "Because" which is on the American Beauty sound track... The first half is just Elliott harmonizing with himself much like the song "I Didn't Understand" on XO.

Elliott taught me so much about songwriting. Probably more than any artist. He has such a brilliant "minor sound" and he's not just some bullshit singer/songwriter than strums basic chords... Most of his songs have at least 8-9 chords in them, and he moves added tones around on all of them while picking out counterpoint melodies... Yet his songs sound as simple as 3 chord songs.

I've been looking for some lyrics to give people an idea on their brilliance, but you really have to hear them. He'll blow your mind, reading them wont. When I listen to Elliott I'm constantly smiling thinking "WOW, THATTTT'S SONGWRITING!". He says either exactly what you expect or exactly what you don't... He never walks the center line for very long... But he never genuinely cheers up.

He has an incredible voice that you can hear in his accappela songs but he generally sticks to his even prettier wimper.

I think the best album to get in to Elliott is either XO (my least favorite) or Figure 8. A Basement on the Hill is probably the worst introduction to Elliott. It doesn't represent who Elliott was, it represents who he transformed in to right before he killed himself.

-Dusty

quote:

Originally posted by dusty:
Name one other artist that people that "have heard it all" feel such a need to tell their friends about as Elliott. I have everything jazz, country, rock, thrash metal, folk and oldies in my collection... And Elliott deserves his own section more than any genre.

Take a listen to Nick Drake.

I have Pink Moon and Five Leaves Left, Dirty.

Nicks good, but he's just another joker with a guitar. Elliott's the real deal.

-Dusty

I think they're too similar to dismiss. I'm not saying Elliot is a Nick copy, but you can't miss certain similarities.


Bryter Layter is really good, too. And I completely disagree that Nick Drake is "another joker with a guitar." I'm not sure if you're just exercizing hyperbole, but that's nuts!



I like both these guys, BTW.

I should probably check out Bryter Layter. Do you thinks it's better than the two I have?

My Nick Drake is a joke comment was kind of... uh... Nothing against Nick... Pink Moon didn't leave my deck for a month when I first got it... But Nick Drake is in the grand scheme of things no more important, revolutionary or had anything more to say than thousands of other jokers with guitars. He's no Bob Dylan.

Elliott had something to say, he had a unique way to say it and he lead the strangest life.

I read his biography...

3 months before his death he went to a clinic that hooked him up to a urine and amino acids to get him off of drugs! It was his 3rd visit and the doctor in charge of the clinic is one of Americas most wanted for such practices! It was Elliott's 3rd trip to the clinic!

What kind of person would agree to be filled with piss even though it wasn't a legal form of treatment?

He was just genuinely different. He walked around his apartment with a knife in his chest while talking calmly to his girlfriend as he died. He had no drugs in his system when he died... not even alcohol.

No one says "Nick Drake changed my life!" No one gets tattoo's to honor Nick Drake... There are web pages dedicated to Elliott Smith tattoos!

Is Nick sort of musically similar to Elliott... I guess. But the content is different, the songs are more rock (Elliott was in a band called Heatmiser that was trying to fit with Nirvana in the early 90's).

Elliott's songs have so much more substance. There are some 1 chord songs on Pink Moon that just sound like a sick repetative wailing...

Nick Drake just wrote simple songs and overdosed on heroine... Boooorrrring.

Is it important that all music fans discover Nick Drake... Well, it wasn't for the first 30 fucking years. Kind of funny that a Volkswagon commercial jump started his career 25 years after his death.

He's kind of like Tim Buckley... Tim's son becoming one of the greatest rock stars of all time wasn't enough to jump start Tim's career... His son had to die a mysterious, early death as well! HA!

Elliott Smith didn't need to die for his music to have merrit, I truly believe the 2 artist listed above wouldn't be shit today if they were still alive. In fact I know they wouldn't be shit today.

-Dusty

Dusty, Piknk Moon is good but his weakest album IMHO. Five Leaves and Bryter are both great; Five Leaves is a little slower and darker. Give Bryter a try, it's different from Pink or Five Leaves to be sure.

BTW, he didn't OD on herione. He died of an overdose of some hardcore antidepressives he had been prescribed. There is specualtion as to whether it was accidental. His family claims it was and cites that, unbeknownst to Nick, the particular med was notorious for being easy to OD on (I don't recall what it was). Who knows.


I think they are similar but Elliot went pop where Nick went folk.


I'm sure there are people who claim Nick changed their lives too. There is someone to say that about just about any popular artist out there--idolization is part of the game. As far as tatoos go, if it's not orginal artwork, I'm not usually impressed. I'd feel like a choad with some guitar playing joker's face permanently in my skin.

To each his own, I guess. I think both are good artists, and, with all due respect to Elliot, soon as many people will flock to the next freshly dead pop rawker : (

I just don't agree. Elliott wrote at the level of the Beatles, while at least 2/3rds of Nick Drakes work is below Simple Plan's standards! (exaggeration of course, but still!).

Get deeper in to Elliott, Dirty... The songs are brilliant, they change meanings depending on your mood. I was playing Norwegian Wood on guitar the other day and just realized that the character burns the hoes house down for not putting out... Brilliant.... I've loved that song, sang it a b'zillion times and never thought of it from that angle. Elliott's songs do that as well.

Sorry, very unorganized and sloppy post but I really should be working on these sloppy drum tracks

-Dusty

I'm a big fan of both Nick and Elliott, and - this might be a little uncoventional, I know - but I don't think either of them were particularly fantastic song WRITERS (as in: lyricists).

What they each were, in my opinion, is fantastic pop song "constructers". They both were very gifted melodically. And I don't know why no one ever says this, but Nick Drake was a fantastic singer. I mean, that voice is the reason he's known at all.

I STILL don't have any idea what the hell he's talking about on half of Pink Moon and I've listened to it a thousand times. Great fucking singer though.

Chris

Heh, rawk on bandini!


Dusty, I have a really hard time with the inference that Elliot's songs are all masterpieces. Many are simple pop songs. Good ones, for sure, but it's not like all of them are groundbreaking. So far as I've listened, his magic is more in the passion and emotion inherent in his work than anything.


You're right, I need to get deeper in, though. It will unfortunately have to wait as my turntable is down right now. The faster you send me the $1K I need for the new cart I want to buy, the sooner I can get listening (on a PIMPIN' new cart I might add )


LOL now I also have some sloppy drum tracks to work on. Did some interesting things to get a big huge fat sound from the kick...I'm really digging this Red5 RVD1

The Red5 RVD1 is a neat mic... I keep on forgetting I own it... Thanks for the reminder!

It's not necessarily a pretty sounding mic, I'm in awe of Dan's ability to mic the bass with it on Jazzooo's cd!

From A Basement on a Hill is a very poppy album. The first 2 (3 if you count his Roman Candle EP) are almost all acoustic and vocals. There are drums on a few songs... but they make Ringo's drumming sound complex.

XO (3rd album, 4th counting Roman Candle) only has drums on about half the album.

It's not really until Figure 8, his next to last album that he really started being poppy in the bass and drums sense... and there are still 4-5 drumless songs on that album. Same with From A Basement on a Hill.

I don't know of any artist that can sound as full as Elliott and his acoustic though. He covers a lot of space. I heard that his secret sound on the early albums was from double tracking performances making slight changes... Then panning each take to a different side.

The performances are so tight it's very hard to hear though.

One way to look at rating this from a songwriter/musicians standpoint that Elliott Smith is the artist I envy most.

From a Basement on a Hill is not a good introduction to Elliott's work... It's kind of like his White Album... it's full of inside jokes that he developed throughout his entire career... One interesting thing about Elliott's writing that you can easily hear is he wrote most of his songs in bars with just a pen and paper. He would go home and put them to music... He's a master at making words fit without it sounding like he's trying.

I also thought his latest album was a joke the first 5 times I listened to it... I thought they had just assembled a bunch of unfinished demos that were bad enough to justify his suicide (just kidding of course ), but it grew and grew and grew into this monster of an album. Hurry up and get a new cartridge!

-Dusty

quote:

Originally posted by dusty:
Hurry up and get a new cartridge!

I'm workin' on it! I have to somehow pull a grand out of my ass and I'm pretty sure that's one thing that is not up there

This album proves something I've believed and talked about all along. I have always thought that someone with a four-track and a couple of decent mics could make an album as lasting and classic as any of the classics. Of course, I hold this belief in relation to myself. It's what I expect of myself, or I mean, it's what I'm trying to do. Though I think I've made a "good" album, I don't think I've made a "great" one.

But Smith did, and it was done using the same kinds of tools I had available all the time.

That is so mind blowingly cool. Here we are in the age of advanced tech, and what does he do? Uses the trickle down tech, the stuff that finally reached us little guys, and he makes an album that will stand up to any, and will surely stand up through time. He used tools so straightforward and simple: acoustic and voice, the voice isn't even loud. The range of his singing isn't even difficult. He doesn't sing anything I can't sing. He uses a little drums, a little bass etc., nothing that I don't have access to- less than I do have access to.

He uses the magic of playing to your heart, of creativity and tunefulness and imagination and honesty of organicness, and proves it's all that's needed to make classics. Proves what I've been saying but not actually doing. And resets me on my course. I started out as a primarily singer/songerwriter on acoustic type guy, but somewhere along the line I disowned my own roots, became ashamed of them even. That is a fool.

Popmann put in a different post that he had to go contemplate where he went wrong. I did that contemplation. I think I went wrong by turning away from my own self.

Lately I've been just playing the guitar and coming back. I feel different. I feel like all the earlier me is joining up with me again, and I breathe better.

Wow, I just listed to this album for the first time in a month or so and it blew me away. I don't know if it's my acoustics or your post that got me to listen closer... Masterpiece... I HAD to play it again. Not to much music can get me to just sit down and listen... I buy all these fancy sounding albums so I can crank them up on my system and listen to details but none of it does it to me like Elliott's albums.

It's so odd, his pronunciation on "Needle In the Hay". He comes in sooo fragile and broken up after such a wonderful uplifting yet simple guitar intro... "strung out and the-in, callin' some fre-ind t-ryin' to cash some check..." and how he says "you oughta be proud that I'm getting good marksssssssssssss"... I've never heard someone sound more strung out.

If you really listen you can hear a lighter flick, and the sound of him slapping his wrist (or clunking his guitar), which actually drive the rhythm! At "So I can be quiet"... and then the ssss on the end of marks becomes the sound of the heroine cooking... And then he uses lighters flicking during the instrumental to follow... So simple, but it really fills out the story!

My favorite song on the self titled album is the final one, "The Biggest Lie". That song is up there with the best of them. It may just be a "simple pop song", but it's absolutly beautiful. I never got it. Now I get it. But whoever says Elliott can't write lryics is fucking wayyyy wrong. His use of double meaning is outstanding. Infact, I'm not sure a better lyrics have ever been written... and his performance outdoes the lyrics.

i'm waiting for the train
the subway that only goes one way
the stupid thing that will come to pull us apart
and make everybody relate
you spent everything you had
wanted everything to stop that bad
and now i'm a crushed credit card registered to smith
not the name that you call me with
you turned white like a saint
i'm tired of dancing on a pot of gold flake paint
oh we're so very precious, you and i
and everything that you do makes me want to die
oh i just told the biggest lie
i just told the biggest lie
the biggest lie

I origionally said "I'm not going to explain it", but I can't help myself. I generally like to discover lyrics myself, or just leave them unanswered... but these are too fantastic.

Ok...

First off. Elliott is singing to himself, not a girl. He's waiting for the train (line), subway (underground) that only goes one way (addiction, no turning back). The line "the stupid thing that will come to pull us apart and make everyone relate" is the stories giveway.

Now I'm a crushed credit card (coke's expensive and he the previous line says he spent everything he had... its common to use credit cards/ID's to crush and split coke) registered to Smith, not the name that you call me with (this is where he is splitting in to his drugged out sad persona "Elliott", his real name is "Steve").

The next few lines are easy to figure out. (you turn white like a saint, i'm tired of dancing on a bottle of gold flaked paint")

..."Oh we're so very precious, you and I... and everything that you do, makes me wanna die... oh I just told the biggest lie"

Steve is Elliott.

Brilliant! Of course that's just my take after reading a biography on him and listening to that song a b'zillion times without ever getting it.

Seriously... I can't think of another song written that masterfully, and he wrote at least 100 songs after that one and songwriters never get worse... They might stop connecting with people, but they always grow as writers.

Elliott was the real deal. 1 of maybe 10 in the history of Pop music.

-Dusty

What can you tell me about how this album was recorded? I'm assuming this one as well as the first was done on borrowed fourtracks? Like what type, cassette? Any idea what mics?

More curious: did he usually sing and play guitar at the same time, or separate. How about for this album?

Singing and playing at once is a tricky thing to capture in a balanced way. Thanks for any info you may have on it.

I read the book, but where and on what gear blew past me. It seems like it might have been done in Elliott's first decent studio (4 track and a Mackie)... But I'd have to re-read to be sure.

Larry Crane didn't really start working with Elliott until Either/Or (the next album).

He recorded vocals and guitar at the same time, and then he overdubbed another performance with slight changes (harmonies and counterpoints) and paneed them different! That's a major part of his creepy sound! If you give it no thought at all it sounds like one guitar and one vocal most the time! Elliott probably learned this technique from his days recording with no effects what-so-ever! And like I said, Roman Candle was done with 1 MIC!

Another wierd things about the songs on the self titled album is they are nearly impossible to sing to yourself without the album guiding you! The vocal rhythms are really shaky and he slurs around so much!

-Dusty

What's a Mackie? Like the inexpensive mixing boards? I have one of those.

quote:

What's a Mackie? Like the inexpensive mixing boards? I have one of those.

Yep. And when it broke he borrowed Larry Crane's Mackie mixer to mix on... thus beginning their working relationship.

-Dusty

quote:

Originally posted by dusty:
It seems like it might have been done in Elliott's first decent studio (4 track and a Mackie)...

A Mackie!...Oh geez here we go again.

-Stixxs

So what's special about the roll of the Mackie in this context? Like a preamp? I just now started trying that out as a preamp 'cause I normally just plug shit straight into the 1680 since I don't own any kind of stuff to do whatever it is you're supposed to do prior to the 1680.

Is that why you think the Mackie was important? Preamp?