Hi to all at this forum.
I'm a professional (acoustic) drummer. And I'll have to move my drumkit from its present location. Bottomline is I'll set a new studio at my apartment and I'm trying to decide among these:
1) Buy a roland/yamaha module (brain) plus the drum pads which would be connected to a Mac or PC which would cost me about $1000 or;
2) Learn about what could be done using a Mac for drum module which could be triggering some pads and/or triggers.

So for the 2nd option would I need to buy a separated P-10/XLR inputs Audio card plus a software I suppose. I've heard about drumagog. But I really don't know my options.
I assume a zero latency setup is desired so I don't get delays everytime I hit the triggered pads.
Would anyone help me out undertstand what I can do to have drums sounds off my pads/triggers using a Mac (its a G4 700 w/ 1Gb ram) as a brain? Or should I just go for the trendy fancy roland stuff?
cheers to all! Lots of music to us in 2008

Roland fancy stuff is the module & silent pads which have triggers in them. You can buy triggers & install them on your acoustic kit & plug them into your module or if you want not to be loud you will need to buy silent pads.

Choosing a module or pads depends on your needs: single or dual triggering, quantity of of drumkit peaces, sensitivity, etc, etc...

After the module you have 2 options:
1. either you use internal sounds, in this case you will use tls outs & go to your sound card or whatever system you use, if you go with direct monitoring on your sound card you shouldn't have enough latency that would bother you(if you have a good interface).
I wasn't impressed with sound quality of any module, besides you won't have any flexibility mixing your kit, all you get is a stereo track with your kit.
2. or you go from midi out to your sound card midi input & use it to trigger a software drum module. In this case latency becomes a problem. A good computer with a good sound interface & no additional processing added to your software drum machine will get you close, not ideal though.

If you have any specific questions, shoot.

Ok, thanx for the quick response.

1) Yes, I want to go MIDI. Do you have any interface suggestions? internal/ external;
2) I'll most likely be working with silent pads equiped with triggers for kick, snare (dual) plus 3 toms = 5 pads (+/- 2 pads). Cymbals should be acoustic for now.
3) I'll run it on a "light" MacG4 700 and 1Gb RAM, no internet, basically dedicated to this purpose. No ideias for software yet though.
4) I'm pretty experienced on sonar4 producer ed.; I've a session drummer for too many years, so I'll find my way thru it. But I have no specific training regardind studio engineering, so as much as I know the differences, etc. it's not my specific area; but i'll be stepping into this hybrid world this year for sure. thanks again for your time mate.

Interface? I don't know, I haven't honestly tried many. Mine is RME HDSP9652 which is a PCI interface. This way I avoid any additional USB or FW latency. However the the card is expensive & you will need external converter or some other interface to be hooked up to it so you can run audio signal in & out. With my 2.2 Core Duo/4GB 667 DDR2 I was able to track at 64 buffer size (when no other plugs or processing loaded, which is pretty fast, but if you are a fast drummer you will notice the delay, however it's acceptable & from what I hear this is almost as fast as it gets. Note that even when you track at 64 buffer size it takes additional time for your CPU to process your software, slower computer = more latency.

This is a big topic, there are too many things involved.
I'll post more info later...

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the most accurate/effective setup would be to get a pad and module setup, monitor using the module, and record the midi information in your DAW. That way you could either use the midi performance internally (drumagog, etc) or route it back out to the module and then record the audio from there. If you used the second technique you'd still be stuck with a stereo drum track, but you could change the overall volumes of each individual pad before you recorded the audio. Or, I guess you could just play back and record each pad's performance individually and have a bunch of mixable audio tracks. Plus, you'll be able to edit/tighten up your performance seemlessly.

Make sense?

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

It's not so easy. First of all you can't get good results with drumagog, imagine a kit with no room or overhead mics, I don't know for you, for me it's no go. You'll need a dedicated software like ezdrummer or something in this ballpark. Modules have 2 modes, working as external controller (it automatically mutes internal sounds) or as master. I can tell you that if you monitor with internal sound when you play the track & later play it back with software you will be very surprised with what you get(not pleasantly). I guess you could spend hours later modifying the midi data, but then that's just an amateur way to do things.

Is there a way to use direct out to power up an external monitor set? This way you could get the direct feedback of the module, then send all the midi data into the program to mess with the sounds later. This way there would be no latency issue when recording so you could get the best performance. Pair this up with a good program and you could have the best of both worlds. It's essentially what you do when recording a live show through the board to a digital medium ...of course you don't want the latency on stage so you send them the direct mix instead.

quote:

Originally posted by nbarts:
...& later play it back with software you will be very surprised with what you get(not pleasantly).

Surprised like how?

BLueROom, I think we're on the same page here.

It is possible. It is like re-amping a guitar track, which never works for me, because guitarist playing direct doesn't feel the amp. The thing is when you play with internal sounds the feel you have with the kit doesn't match with software(I hope it makes sense).
However with a cheap sound card & slow system this will probably work better.

Then again, you are triggering samples anyway. I can't imagine the feel is much different when just moving to a different sample set. Reamping guitars obviously works for tons of people too... you name a well known engineer/producer and they've done it and, many times, prefer it because it gives them flexibility if they need it. Most of the time the guitarists AREN'T playing direct per say, the signal is split into two ...one is run direct and the other is going out to the amp so the guitarist can 'feel' it. The method I spoke of is exactly this, but for a drummer. Not to say you are wrong, by any means. Each person works differently and maybe that approach doesn't fit your workflow or style/technique.

Dokter, I suggest you see which method works best for you and your system. Both ways can yield proper results.

You need to try some pads.

There is a world of a difference between rubber pads & mesh pads, this difference comes through even more(a lot) when hooked up with software drums. Seems like Roland has tweaked their modules to get by with so-so pads. You can play a snare roll with your internal module, which will seem totally OK, but will sound horrible with SW. If you are a serious drummer you will need at least mesh pads. I bought a mesh snare & rubber toms, wasn't the smartest thing I'd done.

Note: The best I can do is share my experience. What works for some well known engineer/producer does not have to necessarily work for me or what doesn't work for whoever doesn't mean that it will not work for you. I did mistakes going for cheaper alternatives for gear at some point, which turned back to me with bigger spendings. It all depends on what your expectations are. So far almost none of the cheap alternatives worked for me, there may be a few exceptions, but not many.

I suggest you first choose pads. After you know what pads you are going to use you can start looking for a module.

There is not much help anybody can offer you choosing a module. You will need to read the specs & compare/see what is important for you to have & what's not. Ex. TD3 doesn't support dual-trigger toms, TD6 does, some modules support some pads, others don't, etc.... etc. Dual trigger doesn't just mean center & rimshot, if you have 2 triggers & you hit the center hypothetically velocity of the center trigger will be A & rim trigger 0. The closer you go to the rim, the higher will be the velocity of the rim trigger & ... you get the idea. SW drums don't support this (may be some do by now, not sure, may be BFD does), but at some point they will.
You may as well go to your local store & play some v-drums. There is a chance you will like internal sounds of some module good enough not to worry about all the BS I've typed here. Why not play a higher priced module & listen, buying it may save you a lot of money. As a comparison you can listen to samples of SW drums on their websites, which are very fair BTW.

I've gotta tell you good v-drums with good software & computer with enough balls to process it will run you probably as much as a good acoustic kit with mics & preamps.

Bad news, I know, sorry.


Another thing, when we say silent pads, they are not completely silent. With rubber pads you get some annoying sound of sticks hitting the hard rubber surface, with mesh pads you get their annoying sound. The point is that I'm not sure you can mic real cymbals with these noises. Maybe mesh pads will work, but again I'm not sure.

quote:

Yes, I want to go MIDI.

Mistake. MIDI's (sequencer) timing in best case scenarios (without involving sampler plug with their oen issue) sucks--particularly for something like drums. Unlike the off "feel" of having audio latency, it will actually produce random timing differences based on the load on the system and the tide and the moon.

If noise is the issue, get whatever pads with whatever fast triggering brain...and real cymbals. Record the cymbals, and the "brain" drums to seperate tracks. Then you can play with DrumaGog and such to replace those close hits after the fact, ensuring timing works in "non real time".

If noise isn't a factor--do the same thing...but, with real drums and some hyper cardiod dynamics.

IMO, digital audio production has come far enough that I think drum tracks can be manipulated in terms of quantization and dynamics editing so much that MIDI is realtively useless. I can speed up/slow down...loop...cut and paste best sections...move a hit (although that one's kind of a bitch-I'm sure it's easier if you're well versed in doing so). What more could you want to manipulate.

You need to record real cymbals, though.

quote:

MIDI's (sequencer) timing in best case scenarios (without involving sampler plug with their oen issue) sucks--particularly for something like drums. Unlike the off "feel" of having audio latency, it will actually produce random timing differences based on the load on the system and the tide and the moon.

+1

There are midi latency compensation problems too.

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:
MIDI's timing in best case scenarios sucks--particularly for something like drums.

Man, that's not been my experience at all. I'm not THAT familiar with or versed in the process, but a few years ago I tracked a few songs using the MIDI output from one of those Yamaha DD55s. I recorded the MIDI info, scooted a few bum notes around, and then sent it back out to the DD55 and recorded the audio. One of the songs had a swung 16th feel, which has gotta be pretty precise to feel comfortable, and I didn't notice any problems at all. And I like to think my sense of rhythm is good.

And did the MIDI drums go down at the same time as all the audio of the band? Or did you build the band arrangement on top of the drums once they were audio?

Ok We've been over a lot of information here and I thank you all for sharing that. One thing is that my acoustic drumset will still be used for my live gigs and recordings, I just cant compromise that.
Regarding the eletronic stuff, the basic idea is to get the "acoustic" feel so that I can work more silently at home, since I play as much as 8-10 hours/day in specific situations.
I've been browsing some shops and I came up with a set up like:
1)DDrum trigger clamps;
2)a TD-3 brain (or yamaha dtx);
3)M-audio MIDI/USB external card to plug this brain into my Mac G4 thru its USB.

Monitors should be sent directly off from TD's 'phones out' to my earphones, so that problem is solved. And I'd choose the MIDI connection to the Mac in order to obtain separate tracks for each drum trigger (I'm assuming that) into my protools or whatever.

I think and agree with NBarts in the issue that for a professional sound you oughta go all the 9 yards as oppose to save some money; that later grant you nothing but headaches, so no improvising here.
I do play extremely fast stuff because of style, so thats a concern as far as sensitivity. I've recorded with triggered drums before and you must have good quality triggers to they accurately reproduce what you're hitting.
A)So are mesh pads really superior to a clamp good-brand trigger (like ddrum or even roland's?); I'd say they're about the same.
B)Is it true I can plug MIDI out from the TD-3 in to a MIDI/USB and lay separate tracks into my mac's protools for later editing?

cheers to all,
Dokter

Roland mesh pads have high sensitivity & you can adjust the tension of the head, however I don't think you can beat acoustic drumset with good set of triggers installed.

You can't go directly from TD3 to USB input, you will need an interface with MIDI in & out, it can be a USB interface. It will go to 1 MIDI track, but that's all you need.

I still don't understand how you are planning to do cymbals.