As I face the prospect of another indie film to score by the end of the year, as well as transferring audio tracks between other studios, I am closing in on a new direction:

Logic 7 on a new generation Mac laptop (the laptop is necessary for portability between CA and Mexico), using a controller such as the Mackie Control thing.

I have been very happy with the slickness of the all-in-one solutions Roland has offered over the years, and I'm not even that attracted to many of the amazing bells and whistles software offers. Still, working with video changes things, and I might as well go with the most integrated setup I can find.

Mac/Logic/Mackie/Apogee seems to have the best coalition in that regard. Opinions?

The first will be the Mac and Logic and a unit with just a couple of inputs, something cheap, so I can practice. I won't need to set up the full studio (16 inputs minimum) for at least a year, but I've got to get up and running on the computer/Logic thing so I'm not scrambling when the work presents itself. I'm glad I'm not in a hurry to buy all the peripherals, as there will be deals on today's gear down the road.

I'm leaning towards Logic over DP simply because of their relationship with Mac and Final Cut Pro. I also like the bundle of stuff available with Logic right now. But I am also put off by the few times I've picked up a book about using Logic--it seems a bit geekish and complex to me.

I have many VS projects to finish right now, and there is nothing to be gained by transferring them to the computer at this point. I am not doing this for improved sonics--my stuff sounds good enough for me. I'm not doing it to use drum loops easily--I play drums. I'm doing it because it's got to be done. I scored a film on the VS, with a VHS remote in one hand and a large bottle of aspirin in the other. Never again.

So just curious, anyone else on this platform?

Doug

quote:

So just curious, anyone else on this platform?

Not me, but I have this thought...

You'll probably find Logic to be as geekish as you're predicting. I bet you can overcome that. Sound on Sound seems to have decent tutorials on Logic with every issue. They may provide one good entry, and multiple routes are recommended.

I doubt this interests you, but Tracktion2 does handle video. It has nowhere near the capabilities of Logic, but it has a streamline interface that is made for producing music.

Peace and good luck to you, Doug.

-Fox

quote:

Originally posted by kid-surf:
btw--- Tracktion is not a good option for film score. Might as well get something that was made for this. (Logic and DP being two really good apps to score films.... both designed to score films. Apps like Tracktion are designed for home guys that don't want deep options. Film music necessitates these deep options. Gotta use the right tool for the job)

No offense to you Fox, or anyone using Tracktion...

I pretty much agree with you Kid.

Doug, I suggest Tracktion (or something similar) for this reason: it's 10 times easier than Logic for whipping up rough drafts of ideas and such (and it will work with video). Everything can then be exported to where it needs to go when major tweaking and such is called for. (T makes that easy.) If it were me, I'd likely have a program like Tracktion around, alongside Logic, becuase I'd want a good sketchpad. (And I don't know Logic, but I've heard it many times derided--and praised--for its complexity.)

yep - do it Doug

I reckon the lappie will be fine. Add some RAM, get an external hard drive.

And yes....save up for that Apogee interface. Completely integrated within Logic.

Cannot go wrong IMHO. That would be an awesome rig.

T

Don't miss my comments on the Planet...except Kid-they're not that important.

This is NOT the time to buy an Apple/Logic-at least you need to be careful-you don't want Intel chips. Not yet...and if I understand Doug correctly he's going to score via audio-not MIDI. If this is the case, Logic is NOT the right platform at all, IMO.

Thanks, everyone--I'm absorbing your comments here and at VSPLanet as well, and I 'll probably post this reponse there too.

There is absolutely no question that I need a system which integrates my audio score, my midi score (I'll be using both heavily on this project) and sync'd video. The last film--well, my timing is pretty good and I'd understand the rhythm of scene after watching the VHS a few times and timing it with a stop watch. I would then write and record the cue to fit. That part was not fun but not a huge problem.

The problems came when the cue was finished and the director then decided to cut a few seconds out of the scene and I started getting a dozen or so videotapes with scenes whose music needed tweaking. Nightmares ensued. For about a year (many, many re-cuts).

In terms of power, for everyone who swears that even a screaming Intel Mac laptop won't be enough, there is someone knowledgable insisting that it would be no problem. Obviously, using multiple drives is an option. Getting a VST player like the Reactor, I think it's called, was just recommended to me if I'm using too much midi stuff while doing everything else. It keeps the CPU focused on recording, video and editing.

I want to do more midi in the next few years--got some projects in mind. For the filmscore, there will definitely be some midi integrated with the audio.

Kid, an orchestral package is something I'd need, but not right away. I won't be working on this film till the end of the year. I'd rather spend the next few months learning the ins and outs of either Logic or DP (and the computer), and then jump into newer sounds when I'm ready.

The soundtrack is for a slightly dark comedy, a la About Schmidt. It's set in Baja, s there will lots of nylon string guitar, quirky percussion and slide guitar, with some orchestral moments. No action, other than a mugging and a rather unfortunate mishap with an RV whose parking brake fails.

Pop, I'm getting conflicting messages about the new Macs. I like the Logic/Mac combo becuase they are from the same company (Final Cut Pro as well). People who have worked on this combo rave about how well everything works together. Back to the computers--I'm talking with a friend who is also a Mac consultant (and a Logic user), who poo-poos fears that the Intel chips aren't ready for prime time. He thinks they've been tested plenty. He's not the kind to drink the KoolAid, imo, but he could be wrong. I'm not completely at peace about it, but I do think Apple is a good enough company that if I bought a laptop today and it didn't work right, I'd get satisfaction eventually.

I'm definitely not saying I have the answers, but I'll be going to a filmscorer's place next week to check out his Logic operation. Having spent a little time working with DP, I can honestly say that I don't like it very much at this point, so I feel like exploring the options. In terms of the film world, I think it's going to be either DP or Logic.

quote:

(But jeez, that's nice of the director to let you work on that for that long.... giving you that sort of freedom. That's pretty rare.)

No, no, no--you misunderstand. He kept changing scenes, all year long. I wouldn't have that long to turn them around. It's just that I'd get more changes the minute I would think I was in the clear. The movie wasn't working, and they kept chipping away at it. The biggest change was after a couple of film festivals, where the flick scored well but they got some feedback about the commerciality of it, and then decided to edit it again, changing it from an ensemble sci fi piece to a vaguely supernatural romance that focused mainly on two characters--without shooting another second of film, because there was no budget!

"Who... anyone that's a composer? Or is it band type guys that don't really have much of an idea of what the work load is for film? I'd take their coments with a grain of salt. [band guys]"

No, he's a composer. Give me a little credit.

I'll tell you, Jazz, that anyone I'd ask for you [if a laptop is a good idea] would say it might not be enough juice."
"

Can you say why? Remember, I'm talking about a maxed out MacBook Pro 2.67 GHz with as much RAM as I can fit, and separate drives for overflow of necessary. How slow is too slow?

"Not sure if you're referring to the right thing? Reaktor (?) is a softsynth that is about the most power hungry app there is. "

No, that's not it. I've got the name wrong--it's a 2 rack space thing that takes VST samples and keeps them off your CPU. Yes, the Receptor, that's it.

"don't know much about it other than what it does. (I'd be curious if you can control the apps the same as when they're loaded into a computer. "

This is what I'm hearing, but when I meet with one guy next week I'll find out for sure. He apparently thinks it's a life saver.

"You don't wanna end up with a system that doesn't suit you. BTW -- ask your composer friend whether he thinks a lap top is a good idea for you. It's possible you may be able to get away with it since doesn't sound like you're doing heavy 3rd party apps. "

Right. It's highly unlikely that I'll be searching for third party apps. Remember, I am a guy who finds what works for him and runs with it, often for years at a time. Like I said, I've heard Altiverb and think it's terrific, but I've never had a moment's thought about wanting to use it myself. Especially if it would give my system problems--I'd never sacrifice a convenient system that gets the job done just to get a better reverb, not at this point in my life.

"BTW -- what I believe Pop is referring to is the "3rd party" folks (the add on apps and plugins) possibly not being up to speed with "Apple". "

Got it, but as I understand it, if I stay with Apple/Logic and Final Cut Pro, and the software that comes bundled with Logic right now (there's quite a bit of it) that's not going to be an issue.

"BTW -- is he scoring films or just recording live stuff? both are very different ways to work. Songwriters don't tend to use as many apps all at the same time. Plus they aren't syncing video."

THe Mac consultant/friend is a different guy. The composer for films--two, actually--are different guys altogether.

How many apps (applications?) am I bound to be running in this scenario:

A Quicktime video of a 3 minute scene;
A 12 track audio cue;
4 midi instruments;
A couple of reverbs, a guitar amp modeler

just a question, is Logic compatible with VST?

I thought it was Audio Units plugs only

t

also - something else to think about - if you are only doing this:

A Quicktime video of a 3 minute scene;
A 12 track audio cue;
4 midi instruments;
A couple of reverbs, a guitar amp modeler

pro tools LE with dv kit might be something to consider

v7 is supposed to run pretty well - optimised RTAS plugs etc.

again, no experience - so take that with a grain of salt

good luck Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzooo:
A Quicktime video of a 3 minute scene;
A 12 track audio cue;
4 midi instruments;
A couple of reverbs, a guitar amp modeler

I can do this now (and much more) with my VS recorder and Vegas Video. Just an FYI for any Roland VS users out there.

quote:

Can you say why? Remember, I'm talking about a maxed out MacBook Pro 2.67 GHz with as much RAM as I can fit, and separate drives for overflow of necessary. How slow is too slow?

You need an external drive. Period. Not overflow. To get more than a few tracks. The harddrive is the single weakest link in ANY laptop. Actually, it's the bottleneck in any modern system at all, but the "mini drives" in laptops just aren't up to streaming multitrack audio. I mean, you'll get some tracks...maybe even 12...but, it's easier to get an external, create teh projects there, and keep the files there.

quote:

just a question, is Logic compatible with VST?

not anymore. but, that doesn't matter since all third party plugs that are VST OR AU wouldn't run on an Intel chip.

quote:

pro tools LE with dv kit might be something to consider

except it won't run on an Intel laptop...support planned for "this year"...

quote:

BTW -- what I believe Pop is referring to is the "3rd party" folks (the add on apps and plugins) possibly not being up to speed with "Apple". Not the other way around.

Here's what I'm saying. ANY code that needs to run real time (re: all MIDI/audio apps) need to be coded into what's called "universal binary" in order to run on Apptel machines. Otherwise, any plug in must now have the following sets of code:

WinXP on 32bit x86 machines (for Windows compatibility)

Mac OS X4 on G series motorola/IBM chips (for G3-G5 support)

Mac OS X4 on Intel CPUs (for the new Intel based lines)

Right now...LogicPro (and only Pro) is the ONLY music app that will run on Mac OS w/Intel chips. Any plug in, softsynth or effect that you want to run will need that code update, too. A "bundle" implies third party--nothing third party comes with LogicPro. All of Logic's synths/somplers/FX are in house productions, and should run fine.

This "universal binary" is a BIG deal for a developer--this is not a little "quick patch"...this is a whole new codebase, so I think support will take a while. It will probably be faster for things that already have Intel codebases on windows and can just change API calls to the operating system. This will leave DP farthest behind, unless they've been secretly working on a Windows version behind the scenes.

Hi Jayson,

I wasn't responding to a request from Doug for "good strings." What I saw was:

Originally posted by Jazzooo:
A Quicktime video of a 3 minute scene;
A 12 track audio cue;
4 midi instruments;
A couple of reverbs, a guitar amp modeler

I just wanted him to know that he can do that right now with his 2480 (or any other VS recorder) a video app and some kind of midi rig.

Since he said he scored a previous film with a VHS tape and remote control (and no mention of pro string libraries, etc...) then I thought he would appreciate this info as it would be much easier, more efficient and faster.

Now as far as the "good strings" dept is concerned, that would be all you. You have way more knowledge and experience with string libraries and pro film scoring than I do.

Not a problem, Jayson.

And I am sorry if I came off sarcastically passive aggressive to you. Didn't mean to. I was just explaining why I told Doug what I did and I gave you a compliment in the process.

I admit that I did not read the entire thread and I only responded to the part that caught my eye.

Peace.

Thanks guys--my 'net access has been down, I'm just now catching up. I'll ask some questions tonight.

FYI...

I called Apple the other day and spoke to a Logic Tech support guy. I laid out the Intel Mac laptop with external drives concept and told him of my fears--not enough processing power.

He said he's not allowed to 'sell,' but then in the next breath said he saw a demo of a new Intel laptop running Logic with video, a full orchestral (midi) score and some acoustic instruments at a meeting and was, in his words, 'screaming fast, with capacity way beyond our older laptops.'

Who knows? I'm talking to more people this week.

"(in fact I can direct you to a site that is much more composer savvy if you want. Many working guys on that site. As well as dudes way more tech than I. You'd know if it'd work in one day)"

Kid, I'd like to check this site out. Thanks.

What about ProTools LE with a video program? I like the package--the mixer/interface. For travel, I'd just do it all on the laptop and extra drives. Seems like a cheaper way to go, so naturally I don't trust it. Does PT LE do midi? Would I have to get a separate sequencer program for that?

PT LE does indeed do MIDI. and in the new version (V7) they have finally implemented things to make peoples lives easier. Like virtual tracks where the audio and midi components are merged, region grouping which applies over many aspects of audio and midi. There's lots more.

In a magazine I trust, there was a recent article where a bloke did a score with PT V7 (not LE though) and was very happy with the end result. Stable and fast.

They have also upgraded the RTAS plugs to run more efficiently.

With that, you also have the benefit of a supposed "industry standard" where pro tools is used extensively and sessions can be simply exchanged.

T

I have used a few programs and PT seemed pretty easy to get used to for me.

sorry, one more thing....with PT, you cannot operate the software without the hardware attached.

So if you bought PT LE with an MBox2 interface, you need to take the mbox hardware with you. Not a problem really, it's pretty small. But you'd have to take your external hard drives too, so you could put it all in the same rack.

I use a Digi002R - rack unit, a little cold sounding.

Otherwise, I do think Logic and the Apogee interface would be oh so tempting.

good luck Doug

Thanks, Tube. Scoring films on PT doesn't necessarily mean it could be done with LE, I guess. I wonder what the limitations would be? I was checking out the interface/mixer tonight--great concept that appeals to my 'all-in-one' fetish.

Thanks, Kid--I'm talking with a local Logic wiz tomorrow, who is also familiar with (and uses) DP and PT. I'll ask about the limitations of PTLE, and how they would impact me--and also thanks for recognizing that my approach to music-making is not typical. A big battle when talking with salespeople about something as personal as a recording setup is getting them to hear who I am, as opposed to simply regurgitating everything they know the software can do.

THere's a good thread about the MacBook Pro laptops running Logic at gearsluts.com--sounds like the consensus of the users on that thread, at least, is very positive. Check it out--

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=65154

Good advice Kid

One thing, watch out if you buy a G5 quad, and PT...there seems to be some problems with running PT on this machine.

PT LE does have track limitations, but earlier on it seemed like you didnt need that many tracks.

There are good discussions on the issues over at the Digidesign User Conference in the LE section on the Mac.

Like this thread

Movie formats etc are an issue! lots of things to consider

My head is about to explode! I spent 2 hours with a salesman--very knowledgeable guy who uses both Logic and DP, not afraid to talk about the positives and negatives of either. He didn't have Logic set up in the store, but we spent some time with DP. We discussed hardware and software, and things started making a bit more sense to me. I'll feed back on the details later tonight--I'm off to dinner with the wife in a sec.

But then, I went to a good friend's house who is using DP--not for video, but video is only one aspect of what I hope to accomplish with this new setup, albeit an important one. Another two hours of input! We had a great time, I was able to identify what I don't like about DP and what I do so far. More later.