hahaha!
Doug, remember to try and balance the "imminent head explosion" syndrome with the fact that you can accomplish an amazing amount of stuff with a computer.

Sounds good that you're getting first hand info and demonstrations. Makes a huge diff IMO. I recall getting knowledgable on PT to a level I thought was OK (good for me), but then visiting my friend who's running a studio and who has been a long term PT user. He really opened my eyes to improvements in workflow and shortcuts.

When you get PT, you also get the Method One training DVD included. I have been watching this recently and it is really a very good resource.

cheers
Tube

I think PT LE is out of the running. As much as I'd love to have a recording interface that is as simple and elegant as PT--from what I can see, it is the easiest on my eyes and brain--the fact that the Digital Video addition doesn't come close to the capabilities of either Logic or DP rules it out. And it's also quite a bit more expensive, if you buy the 002 (which I would).

Alright, I'm off to a Logic studio right now to check it out (one of two--this guy's just a musician, but I want to see that side of it too. I'll be visiting a film scoring dude soon.)

One thing I know I don't like about DP is the way it looks. There's no delicate way to say this: I'm 50, and even though I got my eyes corrected for distance recently, the tiny type of DP is really a pain. I don't really want to change the resolution just to make things easier to see. There's one box, where you activate tracks for recording, that can't be resized--it kind of floats in a third of the screen. Looking at the setup for a 24 track recording makes me squint, and that bugs me. I suppose I could get used to it, but I'm disappointed that I'd have to. The other negative I have about DP is that everyone I've spoken with, even those who love it, say they can never get through to tech support.

That said, I was impressed by the power of it, plus the newer additions to DP5 for working with video. I'm sure Logic will leapfrog it eventually.

One other negative about DP...it won't run on the Intel laptop I need. Yikes. I'm sure they'll get around to it, but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to wait. I leave for Mexico in June, and the laptop is coming with me so I can practice all summer.

Awesome!
FWIW there are a lot of people using both PT and Logic, from my irregular forum browsing.

As Kid said, I dont think you can really go wrong these days with any of the major ones.

Let us know how it pans out Doug. And are you going to consider that Apogee Ensemble interface if you go down the road to Logic?



Tube

quote:

As Kid said, I dont think you can really go wrong these days with any of the major ones.

Not to keep harping on this, but...unless you're buying an MacIntel...in which case the only app that will run on it is LogicPro .

I still don't know what the attraction is other than it being a bit cheaper. I say you decide what capabilities you need, what software/interface combo services those best, and buy the computer it runs best on. Starting with the computer in mind is bassakward, IMO.

"Not to keep harping on this, but...unless you're buying an MacIntel...in which case the only app that will run on it is LogicPro ."

I've understood this from the start, actually, but it's only a matter of time before DP is up to speed. I know it takes companies a while to do such a major upgrade, but I suspect a company like MOTU probably got wind of the Intel Macs long before I did. It's only a matter of time, unless they want to stop selling their product. An awful lot of people are buying the new computers right now, and as word of mouth spreads there will be more. Manufacturers will go where their target audiences are heading or they will lose marketshare.

"I still don't know what the attraction is other than it being a bit cheaper."

What's a little cheaper? The laptop? Logic? Neither are cheaper than the alternatives that I can see.

" I say you decide what capabilities you need, what software/interface combo services those best, and buy the computer it runs best on. Starting with the computer in mind is bassakward, IMO."

I have narrowed it down to two products in terms of software--DP or Logic. They both have the capabilities I need (proven track record working with video and audio), but I still haven't discovered enough about either one to make a decision yet. I'm still up in the air about the physical interface I'll want, but I really don't have to decide that for some time. Both programs will run on a Mac right now, and DP will enventually run on an Intel Mac. I happen to need the 'capability' of being truly portable, which means a laptop, and the only laptop I can see that can stand up to the task of running Logic or DP and doing video work is the new Intel Mac. It's not like there are other laptop choices out there--it's been pretty unanimous that even a screaming G4 Powerbook wouldn't suffice.

I spent 4 hours with a Logic user today. I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised. It didn't see terribly geeky to me. He showed me how he had it set up, similar to how I'd set mine up. After about an hour of talking and watching him set up tracks for recording, I sat down and did the same thing myself. Now, if I'd had to learn everything from a manual to get to that point, I'm sure I'd have given up--I really don't learn that well from reading, expecially technically-oriented stuff. But watching someone doing it gave me a lot of confidence. I recorded audio, then midi tracks.

The interface on Logic is much prettier than DPs. but...the type is also small and there's nothing you can do about it. I guess most of the programmers are in their 20s? It just makes no sense to have your graphics crunched up with tiny letters, hovering in the upper left corner of your monitor while 20 square inches of your screen remains empty. The user agreed with me and has, in fact, written to Apple about it.

Now I've got to get some hands on experience with DP, and also watch Logic working with video (next week, I hope). Neither program knocks me out visually, which is too bad. But I did like the sampler in Logic a lot--nice sounds to start with. The synth (Sculpture?) and reverb sounded wonderful as well.

One negative about Logic is that I only know one person well who is using it, whereas I know 5 in SD and one in Mexico using DP. That's worth a lot to me. And while I'm not going to base my decision on whether or not you can get a hold of tech support, it's still a consideration. I have definitely called Roland in a crunch, and found their support to be pretty much perfect. I got through to a Logic tech guy in about 5 minutes the other day.

So you want to hear something funny? My friend was telling me how Logic had never crashed and how OSX had only crashed once in the past couple of years. While he was telling me, I was clicking on a track to edit, and I crashed Logic!

By the way, the Logic user also had the Mackie Control thingie. I understood it pretty well. Can't say I liked the way it felt under my fingers. I am more drawn to the Tascam 1884, which feels better, and combines most of the same features (minus the scribble strip, dammit) with 8 analog inputs and 4 midi ins and outs. Of course, they're not the highest quality preamps, but if I get the Ensemble eventually (and I believe it will work with apps other than Logic, even though they're being co-marketed) that would cover my high quality inputs. I'm fine using some great ones and some good ones--I do that now.

Perhaps I killed my own thread!

Just to summarize where I'm at:

Setting aside inputs, faders and other peripherals I can address later, before June 1st I'll need the following capabilities from a computer:

1. Ability to work with music, midi and video;
2. Portability between two studios

It seems an Intel laptop is the only solution to #2, unless I buy two towers, which I'd rather not do. Am I overlooking another alternative? It seems unanimous that no other laptop will be up to the task.

Digital Performer and Logic are the most obvious solutions for #1, even though DP isn't ready to run on the most powerful laptop out there at this time, the Intel Mac. I haven't decided which program will suit me best yet, but I'm working on it.

If DP waits a year to come up with an app that can be run on an Intel Mac, wouldn't they lose a lot of business? I guess I'm trusting that they will move faster than that to protect their market. If nothing happens regarding DP within a month, then I would probably just settle on Logic.

Between the two software programs...each has benefits and problems for me. Both are geeky and difficult to see except from pretty close up, frankly. Bigger monitors just seem to exacerbate the problem--you just get the same mouse-sized type and a ton of empty space. Both seem equally up to the task of handling video, midi and audio, and both are actually being used in the film industry to varying degrees, so neither would be like trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. Logic costs more but comes with groovy additional software (sampler, 'verbs, etc) that I'll need. Lots of my friends use DP so I could have built in support. I suspect some of them have versions where they went in with someone else and split the cost. Two have offered to give me their software, but I'm not comfortable with that for a number of reasons, not the least being that I could never call tech support for help.

"Have you bothered to check to see if the string lib you wanna use will work in Logic on that laptop?"

I think that's way too far in the distance for me to decide right now, Jay. And honestly, it's just not a major deciding factor for me. Whatever software I get, I'll find the best sounds for my budget and use them. In reality, I might end up doing one cue with strings in November and then not use them for another year, you know?

"Buying a laptop a month before you need to use it, and buying a software package that the company said won't be ready til (was it the last quarter of 06) seems flat out crazy to me. "

You had posted that DP said they'd have DP5 for Intel in the second quarter of '06. Hey, if they're going to take a year, I can't use DP anyway, as I expect to start scoring in November! I don't want to be scrambling around at the last minute, trying to learn the software and scoring scenes at the same time. It will be challening enough as it is--I'd rather just arbitrarily choose Logic on May 29 if that's the case. Seems like a safe bet to me, though I'm still interested in working a little more with DP.

June gives MOTU their 'second quarter.' Buying a software program and a laptop in June makes sense to me, as that's when I'm leaving for 3 months in Mexico, and I can use that time down there to practice with it. I'll do some recording, some editing, some midi stuff, maybe even load some Quicktime videos into it and score them for practice.

"Also not considering what orchestral package you'll use seems very short sighted too. As they all run on different stuff, some are "apps" which aren't reported to work on Intel."

It's just not that important to me. I'm not going to be doing the kind of work you're doing, at least not for a very long time. By next year, if I've got more film work going (down in Mexico, there's a small studio opening in a year or so--could be interesting opportunities), if I need to spend more money to find something that works with an Intel Mac, I'll find it. I just don't believe that no one will make their product available for this new machine by this time next year.

"So far Logic is your only choice... unless you think Motu is just messing around and will in fact rush this DP fix sooner than what they said they would. (Jazz that hasn't happen YET in the audio world)"

Lol. No, I agree--they did say 'by the second quarter,' but it's unlikely. I guess I'm kind of boxing myself into Logic. Luckily, I didn't find it that challenging to understand right off the bat, and it also has some neat features like the sampler and so forth. If DP pulls off a miracle, I'll consider it too.

"I don't see what your solution is for that laptop... I really don't. It has a gigantic bottleneck at this point."

Why are you saying that? I'll definitely investigate it more, but I've talked to two people who have used them and are confident it will be enough. They're not like G4 Powerbooks.

"You seem pretty firm on the fact that it has to be that laptop."

It's just that everyone has convinced me that older laptops wouldn't be powerful enough. You think so too, right? And I can't see another way to accomplish the goal of being portable between the two studios without a laptop. I'm going to be hopping back and forth a lot, especially if we buy this property.

"I say buy it and Logic and cross your fingers that whatever orchestral lib you eventually chose runs on it by June."

I won't need strings till November, possibly later.

"To transport the G5 you pull 3 cables and grab the handle and throw it in the car........ much like an amp."

I'll be flying a lot of the time. Not as easy, right?

I don't think people aren't responding because they think I'm being stubborn. I have some special considerations, and every answer just doesn't fit. It doesn't do any good to tell me not to attempt to be portable, but I'm definitely open to other ways to accomplish it.

quote:

The interface on Logic is much prettier than DPs.

I agree.

You're obviously OK with being an early adopter and dealing with the lack of choices that will bring for some time to come. You don't seem concerned with third party stuff...that's where the stragglers will be. For me, third party stuff is the only reason to think about a computer. I will give you a single tip to check out. The company Native Instruments have a full blown sampler called Kontact...the baby version is called Kompakt, I believe. It is the engine that powers a LOT of third party software instruments. They license it so they don't have to do as much support work--they just create samples. Anyway, if you can get NI to give you a date for that going Universal Binary...I'd venture you're weeks or a month from that huge market of third party instruments working. At least...on paper. Assuming NI gets it right the first time out.

Good luck.

quote:

You're obviously OK with being an early adopter and dealing with the lack of choices that will bring for some time to come.

I'd prefer not to be on the bleeding edge and I usually avoid it, but if I want to spend my summer in Mexico getting to know a software program, I guess I don't have a lot of choices. The lack of options doesn't bother me, if I go with Logic at least. Their built-in stuff will definitely keep me busy.

I appreciate the sampler tip. If I go with Logic, they've got a built-in sampler that seemed pretty cool to me (but what do I know, having never used a software sampler!) I can at least get used to working with a software sampler on that one. If I grow out of it, I can add another. Having never used one, it's hard to get in the head space that the Logic one won't be good enough to start on.

"Next year.... ok, I thought you said you needed to get going in a couple months. "

No, I need to get started recording and practicing sequencing and scoring to picture this summer, so I'm prepared to do serious work in November. It might even be January or February before I start getting scenes from the director.

"I said that because I was under the impression that you needed to start pre-scoring in 2 months. And in two months I don't see there being many options to score with, not yet. Not the right ones for that film. "

Most of the film will just be acoustic instruments, nylon string guitar, percussion, keyboards, etc. It's not an orchestral score, it's a quirky instrumental score. I could probably record 90% the cues right now with the instruments sitting in my studio. The other 10% will be ambient samples, some intimate string cues (and I might even use a local string quartet for those), and some slow spooky loops.

"But if they are neck and neck for you, it probably doesn't matter which you chose, you'll get used to either of them."

I'm starting to feel that way too, thanks. If Logic had been impenetrable the other day, I'd be sweating it bigtime. But it didn't seem too complicated to me, at least on the surface where I'll spend most of my time--plug in a mic, load a sample, record it. Automate the mix. Burn a CD and move on. Later, when I get into scoring, I'm sure it will be challenging at first. I'm going to a TV and film scoring studio with Logic next Thursday, and we'll see how I feel after that.

"Yeah I see that, I was pointing out that a desktop is not that much hassle IMO since there will be other peripheral stuff. If it were just the lap top then it'd make more sense to me. "

Well, I will have monitor speakers on either end. I'll have to carry the laptop, an extra drive, and something like the MOTU Ultralite with a few inputs. I'm used to carrying my two 414s. Seems like I could carry all this on without much problem, but maybe I'm not thinking of everything I'll need.

"As it stands if it were me I'd go Logic, unless your gut was saying DP, then I'd hang out and see what's up till just before I left. May be best to do that anyway if you really aren't sure yet."

Yes, I guess that's where I'm at. After seeing it in action this coming Thursday, I'll either be leaning towards it or against it. I promise you guys that if I end up not liking what I see, I won't get it and I'll figure out some other way to get what I want.

"Check out GPO too... as I'm betting that's the orch lib you end up with."

Thanks for the tip, and the advice--that goes for Pop, Fox, Tube and everyone else.

good luck Doug, I'm really interested to see how you get on.

I have my eye on a MacBook Pro as well, becasue they can now run Windows (using Bootcamp) I could probably get one through work.

T

Thanks, T. It's a brave new world. One thing is almost certain--I will never be a guy who is constantly changing things around for fun, like some friends of mine (no one on this list). I'll get a setup that works for me, learn it and get on with making music as fast as I can. I've never been into incremental improvement of my recording setups.

I'm viewing this as an experiment in my ability as a midlife dog learning new tricks. If it doesn't pan out, I can always go back to a simpler setup.

quote:

If it doesn't pan out, I can always go back to a simpler setup.

Ahhhhh yes... simple. My area of expertise. And I'll be here to post the steps for setting up your 880 in Mexico to sync to video and midi.

Good luck!

Thanks, guys--yeah, I figured that out about those guys at the 'other' site, Kid. Dome of them tweak for a living, or at least they live to tweak.

"right now I'm setting up a "Horror Template"."

What a coincidence--right now I'm working on a horror mix. Not that it's for a horror movie, just that it's got me screaming out loud.

If I get DP, I'll want to fully explore the synths that come with it before I start adding more sounds. Same goes with Logic--there was a lot of stuff I found interesting just during my quick tour. I know it's alot to expect that a built-in would offer the same kind of excellence as a third party, but I like starting off with limits to see how far I can push them.

DP has no synths, unless something's changed in the new version.

That's a Logic thing. All those synths were NOT "built in"--they additional plugs that competed with third party in the marketplace until Apple bought Emagic. They then made "logicPro" and included what used to be $2500 in software and plugs into a $999 package. It's the second most expensive music production packages--no one seems to get it when I say it's the best "deal" if you're gonna use softsynth/samplers.

I'll give you my run down on the ones I care about--those analog whiz bang buzzy things I've got no use for...

EXS24mk2(sampler)- I've had both Gigastudio and Kontakt--the big players. The Exs24 imports Akai libs MUCH better than the other two. It imports/plays Giga libs better than Kontakt. Understandably not like the native Gigastudio. It's downside? It's a bitch to edit. Giga is too. This is where Kontakt is easiest. But, you know what? I don't do a lot of editing. I load...I play.

Their Organ emulation: B4 eats it for lunch. Something just so thin and digital sounding. Ehh.

Clav Emu: I'm not a big Clav guy, but I will say that the Pc2x did better for the last track I wanted it on. This may be a case of their emu being more "real"...just sounded kinda small and clunky.

ElePiano Emu (EVP88)...Killer. Through and through. Honestly the best I've heard in software. I really don't miss it with the Pc2x around (that's one of it's strongest points)...but, compared to other software like Lounge Lizard, it's the bee's knee's.

The other stuff falls in the synthwash/buzzsaw relmn of "i have nothing valuable to say about them good or bad. EXCEPT--all of the above use FAR less resources than third party alternatives. Promise. By a mile. Except the magical B4, with runs flawlessly on an old G3/266 that won't even run later versions of Logic. But, the others, compared to Kontact, Giga, Lounge Lizard, NI's synth offerings--the Emagic stuff uses less CPU time.

"DP has no synths, unless something's changed in the new version."

The new version has a synth. I'm not expecting it to be sensational, but it's also not the only synth I'll own. I've got an XV5080, a JV1080, and my two controllers--a Motif ES8 and an indispensible (for a couple of sounds) Yamaha S80. Whatever Logic or DP comes up with will fill in the blanks for a good long time.

The only thing I'll really need is a sampler for loops (ick) and strings and some odd stuff here and there.

For organ, I doubt I'll want to go the software route--I just love my Roland VR760 for most things. You'd have to play it to understand, but it's an instrument with waterfall keys and drawbars and it is a *gas* to play. Realism for realism's sake doesn't floor me--I've had people assume a real Hammond was a sample, and vice versa, so what's the point?

I did like the electric pianos on Logic a lot. Very nice, inspiring sounds. I've never had any complaints about my existing Rhodes and Wurly sounds, but it will be fun to switch 'em up if I get Logic.

quote:

BTW Pop, what's the diff in the EVP88 vs EVP73

The 73 is just the suitcase Rhodes model. The 88 has more EP models--Wurli, Rhodes "grand", etc...but, the suitcase is still the best sounding model. In the EVP88, there ARE more options on the 73 model, FWIW. When they were $79 and $299...I'd say get the 73 and be done with it-it's the best of the sounds in the 88...but, the 88 IS better. And since it's now included-bonus.

Technically, for anyone else reading, the 73 also functions in other apps--the 88 ONLY works in Logic. Another reason the $79 73 was a better deal.

Oh, and Doug...you know you can use that waterfall keyboard and drawbars to "play" the software models, too. I wouldn't play any without my Voce MIDI Drawbar unit. The Roland, if it sounds as good as the VK series, will kill Emagic's, IMO...but, won't beat the B4. I've got the new B4II--really it's the same thing with some added amp/leslie tweaks and a built in reverb. Not a huge improvement...but, also not lacking-certainly will be supported longer.

quote:

Jazz -- I'm not into -or talking about- realism for realism's sake.

That line was more for Pop, regarding the organ sounds. And Pop, it's better than the VK series, and almost certainly not as realistic as the B4. Who knows, down the road I'll probably get me a B4, but not right away as I'm really into the sound of the VS760.

As for your comments, Kid, I'm right there. I prefer to have as much expression under my fingers as I can get in the first place, while I'm tracking, and then just go in and tweak expression, add some vibrato, a slur here and there, etc. But I'm going to be just fine for a while with whatever comes with either DP or Logic. Really, I'll take a few months to see how much I can get out of the in-the-box stuff.

It's funny, I called it a 'bundle' earlier and Pop corrected me. But it sure sounds like it was a bundle that Logic bought and now includes.

Is there any place / anyone that has done a side-by-side comparison of all the various platforms? Starting with the 'light' versions for small budgets (like mine) and includes the full-blown versions (for budgets like Kid, Jazzoo and pro-studios).

I am looking at the MOTU Ultralite, for around $600 bucks. It comes with MOTU's own platform, but will plug into (I think?) ProTools or Logic or ... ?

What are the "big three" Recording Platforms for computers.

And: Mac or PC?
Is the INTEL Mac going to blow the doors off the PC ? Is MAC the way to go? Which MAC?

Will a G4 Mac (power book or floor model) work?