Don't complain about the high cost of plug-ins until you've bought Algorithmix or Cedar. THEN you're justified!

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce, where are you on the Puget Sound? I'm looking for a local mastering facility for a few projects in progress as well as some upcoming ones.

Hi,

I'm building a new high-end facility in Issaquah on Cougar Mtn. near Lake Sammamish.

Regards,
Bruce

Ohhhh, nice and close!

While we are on the subject, can someone tell me how to bypass the alarm, hotwire, and replace all the VINs on an 07 Jaguar? I swear, I'll pay for it eventually.

(tough choice - swipe it or buy it...)

I can't believe this is even a topic. what's next - a how-to-get-away-with-murder thread (wait...that's already been done...see the OJ Simpson blogs)....

If no one else will say it, I will: what you are asking us to do is to aid and abet in a felony...accessories after the fact...and, IMO, is an insult to the rest of us who have to actually BUY the tools we need to conduct business.

we've pretty much been through all the moral and economic implications related to this thread already, and honestly I can't see any worthwhile information coming from this thread anymore. is there anyway to delete it or close it?

if you have Melodyne and learn to use it, Autotune will become useless to you. Melodyne is way more powerful and sounds a hell of a lot better.

Copyright Infringement Does Not Equal Theft
http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/5002/theft.html

Interesting interpretation...but ask yourself (legal minutia and definitions aside): if it was software that you developed, the funds of which help feed your family, etc...would you be concerned more with what its called (theft vs copyright infringement) or would you be concerned about the financial impact? Depends on what your definition of "is" is, I guess...

Autotune is owned by someone...the trial basis is a trial basis...attempting to bypass the conditions set forth in the trial basis agreement is (IMO) just not kosher...

But that's just my opinion.

The author of that article raises some interesting points, but even he says "I do want my creative rights to be protected against a different form of copyright infringement"

I wonder what his point of view would be if no longer able to protect his rights as he sees them.

Not everybody wants to work off the same business model & authors should have some sense of protection re: intelectual properties.

A certain amount of software theft is going to be unavoidable. But I don't understand the idea of saying it's ok to take something for free that is not INTENDED to be free because it's software, not a pack of gum.

If a person (or company) creates something of VALUE to you, you should be willing to pay for it asked. If you DON"T believe it has value...then don't buy it, it has no value anyway, right?

& try applying the "I'll pay for it when it suits me" logic to a $3 cup of coffee @ the mall coffee shop and see how quickly security gets called - Would you DO that? Of coarse not! People might see -:P

good point, copyright infringement isn't theft- its copyright infringement. its equally illegal, just really a different name. technically you never own the software you're using, but are granted a license to use it. as it has been stated previously in this thread (even if the term "theft" was incorrectly used), the illegal use of software isn't cool.

See, the problem here is the same old moral issue that is ever unavoidable. The problem with pirating software is, it's just too damn easy to do. Once you expose the masses to a way to aquire things like software illegally, you can never really take that type of thing away. People will always want it because they know it is always there SOMEwhere.

I'd be lying if I said that EVERY peice of software I have is legit, some aren't...That said, MOST are, and the ones that aren't I make no excuse for. We aren't all millionares, but to use the earlier analogy, no I wouldn't steal a BMW just because I liked it, but then you don't see lots full of BMW's lying around for free either. Unfortunately, the web is full of places one can get such things anonymously for nothing. That is a sad fact. I do not condone such things, but I have certainly "tried out" plug-ins I was intrested in before buying them. The temptation to abuse this sort of availability considering the retail cost of some items is hard to ignore. While I certainly have spent my share of dough on the software I wanted, it's also just as hard to justify spending as much on a peice of software, as my Mortgage. I think all too often, some softwares are simply priced ridiculously high for the average end user, and this too fuels the problem. Why should one drop 7-800 on a program you can get just as easily scott free without consequence? Peer to peer filesharing is an unfortunate fact that just simply is not going to go away. The sad fact is there are at least half a dozen sites currently hosting full version of the entire Antares Catalog if you wanted it. While most of us can at some point afford to spend the money on a legit version, try getting the young kid with a smokin fast laptop and a head full of creative ideas and no money to buy into that. It's not going to happen. Cost is the biggest reason many musicians opt to do this type of thing, and thats just an unavoidable truth. Also, piracy in and of itself isn't eating up a big enough percentage of market sales to really drive any of these companies out of business. The actual percentage of people trading pirated software is small compared to the number of buyers in the market place. This too isn't helping to resolve the situation.

I don't condone it.....I just see the problem for what it is. To your average kid, why buy the cow when you know you can get the milk for free? Is it right? Of course not....but that's the way it is, and I doubt you'll see it changing anytime soon. People will ALWAYS want something for nothing, and as long as it's out there....they'll get it.

well said.

Also, keep in mind, that almost NOWHERE can you buy a peice of software, open it and install it and try it out, and then take it back if you don't like it. In fact I have NEVER been able to do this as most places have a no return policy for software. They do this to try and prevent piracy and the stealing of CD-Keys, etc. But I believe this too helps fuel the problem.

I OWN my copy of Sonar 6 PE, I made the investment honestly, BUT only after trying out a downloaded copy which I have since removed. I refuse to pay that much for a peice of software without knowing ahead of time if it's worth it. To THAT end, I use these types of downloaded files to determine where and how I spend my money. And no, I'm not wasting my time with "trial" versions. Why should I when full working copies are out there for me to review? Again this becomes an issue of demand versus availability. Why in God's name would I drop several hundred dollars on a program I had never tried before if I knew that if I didn't like it, I couldn't take it back? See where I am coming from with that? THAT is a legit issue that also fuels the whole problem. I could have just as easily stuck with the downloaded copy, as the only thing I lose is any type of legit support. Hell, even the Product updates are available to most programs on P2P these days. And since there is very little consequence...there is very little deterent. Since I am not mass burning 1,000 copies of a hacked software and reselling them, noone is going to come knock down my door because I'm downloading Torrent files. This is a sad but true fact. Until that changes....nothing will.

Being a software developer myself I have to say that the knowledge and understanding of the algorithms that go into these software plugs ins is extremely complex. The reason these things cost so much is because people put their, blood sweat and tears and hours upon hours of research to learn how to make them, and then they charge for the time it takes to develop a package and back pay for the schooling. It takes most people 7 to 8 years in school to just begin to understand them. It pisses me off especially from the stand point of a developer when people think they can blatantly rip off people because they look no deeper than, hey it costs to much. There is a reason why it costs so much. If you think it costs to much go spend 40k on a 7 year college education, specialize in Fourier Transforms and Harmonic analysis sit down at your computer and make your own. By the way when your done, can I have a free copy? I promise to pay you later when I have the cash.

Hey man, I agree completely, don't get me wrong...but again I simply see the problem for what it is. People will always want something for nothing if they know it's out there somewhere to be had. I'm not condoning it, I'm just pointing out the root cause of the issue. The biggest issue in Software piracy, particularly with high end programs is the pricing. Average Joe user can't appreciate the time and effort that goes into such programming, nor does he care. Sad but true. He simply wants the damn thing. Now, morally wrong or not...the average Peer to peer file sharing dweeb sees nothing wrong with what he is doing, because he's not "hurting" anyone. At least not in the physical sense. He downloads it, no harm no foul right? You and I know that's not entirely true, but we also know most musician's ain't rich right? Again, I'm not making excuses or trying to justify it, all I am trying to do is explain the reasoning behind it. Noone I know that uses P2P filesharing regularly sees anything wrong with it. Most in fact, see it as a great way to save money. As I said, why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free?

And we're not really talking about taking food out of anyone's mouth either. Let's be fair....we're talking about profit margins, the key word being profit. Yes, I know the ramifications of that issue to, but average Joe user doesn't see Native Instruments, or Cakewalk and the like closing their doors anytime soon either. This is the kind of reasoning behind why it's so popular.

Think about it. There's a reason that over 30% of the Internet bandwidth available WORLDWIDE is currently used by Bit Torrent P2P protocols from various clients. It is EVERYWHERE! you simply cannot stop it now. For every Activation algorithm or Security there is a key somewhere. Just ask Microsoft about that issue They've been trying for years to stop it. And they never will. Why? Because once you open up things like that to the masses, the masses have a nasty way of finding the answer to maintaining their access to it.

Also, as I said, most people download it and use it for themselves. The only ones that ever get busted, are the ones that download and THEN distribute it for a profit for themselves. I view this as common thievery, and these are the ones you mostly hear about, but the fact is there are MILLIONS of people world wide that use P2P software, and you simply can't jail them all. It simply will never stop until someone magically finds an unbreakable key to protect media content. And even then someone will find a way to unlock it.

You and I can appreciate the time and effort that goes into the creation of these programs, but yer average musician has no clue. All he sees is a program that retails for as much as his monthly rent, and then he stumbles across a p2p site where he can get it for free. Which choice do you think wins out 75% of the time? It's a sad truth....but a truth none-the-less.

Yeah, I can appreciate your view point. I guess the original post kind of ticked me off because I have been to a lot of studio forums on the net and this one really stands out as being one where a lot of professionals regularly visit and not the place where you go asking people how to get past some anti piracy trial period. IMHO blatantly sketchy questions like that do a disservice to the site as being a place to go for professional help. I know that people have been cracking software since software was first distributed, and the internet makes it all the easier. I doubt it will because most people are honest but, hopefully it doesn't get to the point of being like China or Russia where you can't find an original copy of anything. Because unlike music without cash flow there will be no software innovations, or plug-ins to steal.

eclectic guitar-

you're absolutely right: sketchy question, wrong place to ask. i regret asking in the first place, but only did so because i was looking for a temporary way to extend the trial period of my legally obtained trial of autotune until i could purchase my own copy. i wasn't asking for a serial number, a way to crack the software permanent, or some other permanent method of piracy. to be honest, i kinda feel like entering into the witness protection program to avoid the scorn of the members of this forum! haha, this is a great site, and i'm sorry for the controversy. lets pretend i never asked. watch, i'm going to be trying to get a job somewhere and the person hiring me will be a member of this site. they'll make the connection and say "oh you're that prick who steals shit, get out of here".

that being said, i do think the initially sketchy question prompted a pretty good discussion.

ps- in case your wondering, i'm using a legal version of autotune now, so no worries.

Even if the original question was "sketchy" I agree it sparked a pretty good conversation. Sometimes issues like these need to be talked about. They're like the 2nd Cousin nobody likes, but you still have to deal with them from time to time.

There's no doubt Piracy is a runaway problem. The key I think is in acknowledging it first, understanding WHY it exists, and then determining what to do about diminishing it's spread. All the locks in the world won't stop it, simply because for every lock there IS a key somewhere. A new approach is needed, some "outside the box" thinking to protect software in such a way as to make deconstructing it's code meaningless. Until this happens, the industry will be like a bucket full of holes withno hope of stemming the flow.

After reading this thread, I'm getting the impression that software developers think they're immune from the realities facing the rest of us, who sell goods & services to the general public. Retailers have the ability to stop 100% of "shrink", by treating customers like prison inmates. But then the customers would just go to another store where they feel more welcome. So retailers choose to accept some "shrink" and work it into their business plan. As an attorney, I get pumped for free advice all the time, by callers who falsely promise to retain me. Sure, I sometimes resent this, when I consider how much time and money I spent, to become a lawyer. But I don't stop giving free advice, because: 1) someone who "steals" my advice might later hire me, or refer a client to me, and 2) the only way I lose money by taking a cold call, is if that particular time would otherwise be billable to a paying client. In other words: allowing some of my work to be "stolen" is really just free advertising. If someone makes a copy of your software, and that person would not otherwise have paid you for it, then you didn't lose a sale - you gained a user. If you programmers don't realize this, I bet your employers do. Welcome to the real world of business.