Y'all...I's so mad I could spit...went to the local outlet for a national electronics chain store (won't mention names, but the itials are Best Buy...)

1. First started looking for a whole new system...they had Celeron/Samptrons (which I don't want to gamble with...), and nothing but dual core systems...dual core is not an option now, as I am a Samplitude junkie...plus everything they had was 64 bit (again, Samp won't cooperate with 64 bit...its 32 bit is still better than ANY 64 bit system I've heard)...And of course they were ALL PCI-e, rendering my UAD card to an expensive paperweight.

2. So, I decide to look for component upgrades...no FW800 cards at all, all dual head video cards were PCI-e, no FW drive carriers...Finally found a reasonably priced Gateway with a bunch of crap on it (media readers, etc...) software (that I would have to delete) out the wazoo, etc...but had what I needed...problem was it was a demo model only...and IT DIDN'T EVEN WORK! (Sidebar: why is it cheaper to buy a pre-assembled system, with $2500 worth of software already installed, than it is to get just an audio machine? Maybe one of the DAW machine makers can explain this to me....)

3. So I start looking for any sort of bare-bones system I can assemble...no such animal.

Now this stinks...all I want is a single core 3.2 system with regular ol' PCI slots, dual head video, FW800....

Are there ANY bare-bones kits out there that are available so all I have to do is plug in a few things, tweak it, and start recording? My current system is getting a bit long in tooth, but this being caught in the middle of a technology shift is just too weird.



There HAS to be a middle ground somewhere....

The middle ground for me has been having a friend build a computer system for me. I have several friends who love to build systems from the ground up. For a very modest fee (cost of parts + $100 or sometimes less), they will purchase all of the parts and assemble the computer. There are also two computer stores in town that build computer systems, both custom and pre-configured. It's fairly inexpensive (about 10% more than the cost of the individual parts).

Upgrading is a real hassle. Good luck.

The way I did it was just to keep checking both stores and classified ads (don't limit yourself to Best Buy) until I found the specs I wanted. Then I took it home and wiped all the superflous crap off it with a clean OS install.

I would NEVER put together an audio puter without a fresh OS install. You don't know where those things have been.

I ended up getting a fab used one from a guy for $300 bucks. After wiping all his gaming crap off, sticking in my soundcard and some RAM I've had a rock-solid DAW for going on 2 years now. No probs.

If you live in a craigslist city, you can often find some amazing deals there on not very old puters.

Chris

The new breed of motherboards will usually have all 3 types of PCI slots. For example this board has 1 PCI Express x16 for video, 2 PCI Express x1 slots for whatever, and 4 standard PCI slots.

You can also still get single core processors like these.

All good advice...the trek continues...

Of course, there is always the notion of:

1. Waiting for the X48
2. Radar/HD24XL
3. Waiting another six months, so the "state of the art stuff" of today will be totally obsolete....

have looked at Price Watch ?

Click on "Bare Bones Systems" and let the shopping begin!

Thanks for that...never been there - looks like there are so deals to be had....

Also try www.newegg.com , in conjunction with pricewatch they are fast and reliable.



This is roughly how I'm buiding my next box :

Intel CPU p4 3.0ghz hyperthreading
Intel Mobo
RAM Corsair brand, one step above 'value' series
Seagate hard disk (quiet)
Zalman CPU cooler (quiet)
Silenx or PCpowercooling power supply (quiet)
CD/DVD R combo drive (sony)
Video - Matrox Dual Head G550 (if you need dual head, mobo integrated video card if you don't
Windows XP
Case - plinkusa.com Aluminum 4U rack $99

music computers not connected to internet, but networked together.
thats about it.



I'd say don't bother waiting for newer technology, cause as you said some of the new PCI slots are 'too new'.

Its more about where in the combination of product lifecycles of reliable and tested mainstream parts were things actually working for most people.

quote:

Are there ANY bare-bones kits out there that are available so all I have to do is plug in a few things, tweak it, and start recording?

Have you tried ebay stores? It might be worth a shot, although you still might have problems due to limited selection or none at all. I almost bought a pc this way, but then found a local dealer in the Dallas area who built me what I wanted - I spec'ed everything, and he matched the ebay prices.

I recall - this was about 6 months ago or so - finding more bare bones systems thru the ebay stores than anywhere else - seems like they were running from $400 to $700 or so. My situation was different than yours, I was building or buying a gaming pc for my kids as opposed to a pc daw ...

FWIW...I hear the X48 wasn't even working at the NAMM show. They said they still can't get it o record the kind of 96k track count they've been advertising.

Vaporware.

I feel for you. I had a Gigastudio system built around a 440bx board a few years back. The mobo gave up the ghost--I was forced to upgrade everything (well-cpu/mobo/ram/HD)...and then my sound card had issues with the new mobo.

Say what you will about hardware systems (like Roland/Akai, etc) being "outdated"...but, if one dies, there are a million on the used market--as well as no production to step in and take their place-even 5 years later.

The X48 looks cool...if, you know...they ever get it to work. Of course, since it has NO analog IO or preamps, it's a price box if you need a lot of channels. You're getting close to PTHD money. And we know which of those will bring in more clients. Both will make your UAD1 a paperwieght, but...you can send that to me.

Which reminds me...I've got a P4 2.6HT...regular PCI slots. Intel Pearl board.

Considering the real world difference in this and my old 800mhz P3, I'd venture you'd never know the diff in 2.6 (and the board will hold serisously faster) and 3.2.

Buy yesterday's tech that way. There should be plenty of older Radeons and such that will have dual head capabilities and work in this AGP slot.

Done some more thinking/research/re-thinking on this...

Face it: no matter HOW powerful a computer is, no matter HOW fast, etc...it cannot replace solid hardware and the patience to use it properly....

I recorded many CDs, ads, whatever, on a 1.6G machine, using the computer as pretty much a tape machine, relying on a digital mixer (which carried most of the load)...and since I am in the midst of getting a decent mixer and some more high end mics, pres, etc...perhaps I'll just continue to work with older and slower machines...

Always experimenting....

A few months ago I upgraded my secondary system with mostly barely used components I purchased off ebay (plus some ram from Newegg). I had a couple of components laying around (a spare hard drive and a power supply). Not figuring the XP OS (upgrade from 98se), I might have spent around $250-300 total and now have a system that is 5x what the old one was. This system is in my office and I use it for downloading updates, making copies, and some occasional editing if I don't want to fire up the entire studio. My point is that, if you know what you're looking for and shop patiently and carefully, you can put together a potent system for very little cash. And I agree, if you're not running a ton of tracks with lots of plugs, a 1.6 machine will do pretty well. I was able to run about 20 or so tracks without plugs on my orignal DAW system - a lowly P3-450.

drbam

You have my deepest sypathy. I just went though a simular problem with Logic Audio Gold 4.0.

I ended up going into Protools-M and M-Audio's 1814 firwire interface.

I don't have any recomendations for you; just shared frustrations at a society that's lost all responsabiliy for yesterday for the sake of what is "latest and greatest" because that's what sells and the dollar Is "GOD"

there are PCIe FW cards now, could be the the rescue for us poor nforce4 users.

quote:

Originally posted by Wireline:
Face it: no matter HOW powerful a computer is, no matter HOW fast, etc...it cannot replace solid hardware and the patience to use it properly....

Bingo.

quote:

...and since I am in the midst of getting a decent mixer and some more high end mics, pres, etc...perhaps I'll just continue to work with older and slower machines...

This has been my modus operandi for some time now. If you can swing the cash, a Radar could be your ticket. Track and mix with a good mixer and killer converters primarily in the analog domain (which, IMO, there's just no substitute for right now), then fly the tracks out to your DAW of choice for any editing chores.

I've been using a combination of AcidPro5, Sound Forge 7.0, and CD Architect 5.2 on an el-cheapo Gateway P4/2.6Ghz machine for the past year for this very scenario and it's been working great.

quote:

Buy a Mac, problem solved..............

LOL. Here we go again. "My toy is better than your toy." Crazy.

Amazing that this line is still perpetuated after all this time. Is Apple paying you guys or what?

Chris

Yes, that is the short term solution.

Macs have the problem I have with the "computer as studio philosophy"--they take money to keep'em going.

Buy a system today...G5, Logic, MIDI interface, Audio interface, control surface, plus DSP cards&plugs...$8k and it works flawlessly.

Come a few years, and you want to upgrade any piece...OR...a hardware piece fails. Get ready to buy a new computer, software upgrades for the new OS, maybe hardware upgrades for new "connection protocols".

To an extent all digital equipment have this. Particularly consolidated pieces like the "all-in-one" units...but, not to the extent of the computers.

Not to mention, most people don't see forward enough to back up in a platform free format...how many of the Logic or Sonar users out there back up to contiguously rendered WAV files? What happens when your software is, say, bought by a competing company (ie: Logic by Apple) and strands you with a bunch of Logic BU files, which are not only NOT cross platform, but when you switch platforms make it impossible to even recall the tracks?

If you think WAV is universal, and you platform records using it so your safe, think again. Grab one of those directories and try to piece together your project from those autogenerated "wav" files.

But, then, maybe we don't care about backups of the multitrack or MIDI performances...so long as we have the end results--mixes and masters safe...I think that's a legit philosophy for a home studio. How often do you want to remix and old multitrack and not find that it would take you less time to just do it over?

I compromise where I feel I need to. The NI B4--good example. Easily does as well as the new Hammond Xk-3 or whatever the $2200 hardware B3 odeller is...for $200. But, after installing a different sound card last year, I lost the ability to use it. Keys stuck. Neither manufacturer wanted to take responsibility...so, I put my old card back in. How long will I be able to do that? I've got a 12 year old B3 modeller (VoceV3) sitting here that sounds more than passable, and is still ticking. Nothing proprietary about it.

I think for the most part hardware will always do better. But, it's a matter of how much you rely on it...and how much it means to you to have abilityX that you've paid for available in 10 years.

I veiw computers/software as consumables. While a rack of ADATs may still be working just fine for you...you'd have trouble keeping a ProTools rig of the same era going. Trust me, I know someone who's tried. So, if you're OK with the $8k buying you the ability to have integrated recording/mixing/MIDI/sampling/synths for a period--say 4 or 5 years, then you get another solution...cool. But, after that point, you're walking the line of a little piece failing and losing 80% of that investment.

I realized the other day, that I've got almost enough outboard gear now to go with an analog board. I can assure you that's where I'll go when the Akai goes belly up. Should it go belly up. And FWIW, yes--I've got everything as rendered WAV exports, ready to suck into whatever the next recording system is...assuming it's PCM--and I'm hoping it's not.

quote:

Not even close to my toy is better than your toy. I just got through saying I have 2 PCs and 2 Macs. And I still use both 5-6-7 days a week. Although, I find Mac waaaaay better after having used both. After having continued to use both.... so you lost me bro???

No worries. I was just observing that whenever there's a computer-related discussion, some Mac user will pop in and say something along the lines of "if you're having computer troubles, just get a Mac."

As I've said several times before, my *personal* experience leads me to prefer PCs. However, I recognize that others have different experiences, so I would never advise someone that "PCs are less trouble than Macs". That's just MY experience, not a universal truth. And therefore not particularly worth sharing, since we ALL have our subjective little computer experiences.

Many Mac people on the other hand have this astonishing "brand loyalty" that leads them to continually pipe in and endorse THEIR toy above all others. I just find it sort of amusing, is all.

Although I should add that PC people can be just as bad.

I mean, I think the fact that the "Mac Vs. PC" argument is the most enduring thread on all audio forums illustrates a very basic human flaw: we always think that OUR way is the BEST way.

The other "old chestnut" threads (Analong Vs. Digital, etc.) bear this out as well.

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by kid-surf:
Dudes who swear off computers don't own G5s, they own PCs.........

Or, they don't wanna mix with a mouse. I've run both platforms over the years for a variety of applications and both have had their problems. I've been running nothing but PC's for the past several years and none of mine have ever blown up or given much trouble at all. It's all in how you use and maintain em. Same with Macs.

quote:

I'm giving these PCs one more chance with a 'good' surge protecter... if they fuck off on me again they're going out the window. Still, I bet a Mac wouldn't have had that prob.

Unprotected, a Mac wouldn't survive a power surge any better than a PC.

quote:

Buy a Mac, problem solved..............

Depends on the problem you're trying to solve.

quote:

guess you could always compare a Mac G3 to Radar.......

Which would be like comparing a trike to a trout. The G3's dont' come with killer converters built in and the Radar's can't run plugs or do editing with a mouse. Can't do word processing, spreadsheets or surf porn on a Radar either. The Radar's were designed from ground zero for nothing but audio recording and do an exemplary job of it. The Macs can be made to run audio pretty well, though I've seen folks running PT rigs on em that still gave em trouble. Same with PC's. Again, I think the primary reason they have trouble with either platform is because they don't know how to maintain em properly.

quote:

FWIW -- I've never heard a Radar Track that made me say "wow, I've gotta have that". I looked into Radar and was seriously considering buying it back before my big upgrade. Ultimately I'm glad I didn't. To each his own.......

Quite so. I felt the same when I heard various DAW apps running on both Macs and PC's. Maybe they just weren't using decent ADDA. Considering what you're doing, the Radar probably wouldn't fit your workflow anyway. Been watching the special features sections of a lot of DVD's lately to see how the audio is done. Depends on the genre and the budget, but very often the music score is some orchestra recorded in a killer room with big boards. Other audio and effects are often foley'd and/or done in some DAW. Makes sense. Lots of flexibility ITB.