Fox suggested I start a new thread discussion on A/D converters. Sounds like a good idea.

I've heard a few songs in a project studio where the Apogee Rosetta was used as the A/D Converter and was shocked.

At a different project studio MOTU was used. Those songs were nice as well, however not quite the same as the Apogee setup.

I can't describe this accurately and there may be mitigating circumstances here as to the way these were recorded obviously, but has anyone used both and noticed a richer "stereo field" with Apogee? I forget which MOTU box was used -- the 8 something I think. 898? I'm too lazy to look it up :P

I have the Digi / E-MU converters now and I'm not really all that impressed -- everything seems very "flat" no matter what I try.

No thoughts on this? I'm told that the DAW makes little difference these days, it's all in getting the best A/D converter that you can. Getting the best data into the DAW.

Anyone, anyone... Beuller, Bueller.

Buy a RADAR, just for the converters, get 24 ch's of better A/D than Apogee (in many ppl's opinion) and get a 24 trk recorder throw in with the deal

Bueller has left the building.....

Re what bazz said, I only wish I could even come close to being able to afford even a beat up used RADAR rig!


Though FWIW yes, Apogees are that good--I find them sparkling clean, open, musical, even lively. I also wish I could afford them. (I've got the much more affordable RME ADI series converters instead--pretty good, but not quite as good as Apogee IMO--thing is Apogee costs 2-3x more and the RME stuff has already set me back several thousands! (and I'm still short 8 channels)

i'm super impressed with converters by Lynx, Mytek, and Lavry. we've got a Crane Song Hedd 192, and though it's only 2 channels, it sounds wonderful.

quote:

Originally posted by dirtyragamuffin:
Re what bazz said, I only wish I could even come close to being able to afford even a beat up used RADAR rig!

Well,..you do have a point. BUT, 24 ch's of RADAR A/D is still less than 24 of Apogee I reckon

it might be an innacurate observation to compare completely different songs, done in different studios with all different components. I don't think you can pinpoint A/D or Apogee conversion as to the differences between the ttwo unless everything was the same then both ways of A/D were utilized. Although Apogee is very good, typically there are many reasons why something sounds remarkably better. A/D is way down on that list of reasons, but on the list nonetheless

Good point, kel.

The other side of this is for those that are starting up working studios, high end project studios in which they hope to make their bread and butter, or some cash on the side, then the consideration of what their A/D is going to be is usually high on the list..I'm basing this on the cats, locally I've talked to, and I've talked to a few of them.

All this being said, I just have stock VS converters at this point LOL..but I don't have anything more than a songwriters studio at home. "Real" tracks, are done elsewhere and I'll just hump some of the better gear I have with me.

Point taken on the different songs vs. different converters -- I did throw that caveat in there though. One was using Nuendo the other DP, both on G5s I believe - may have been G4. I wasn't actively persuing any new gear at that point, was just checking out the little studios.

Yeah, RADAR would be nice... There are a few (very few) used ones I've seen out and around from 6 to 10k. Then of course tack on the DAW.... Blah Blah Blah... expensive.

I've heard though that IZ is a fantastic tech support company from several people and that they will upgrade the old RADAR 24 boxes - or maybe all the old boxes, new processor, RAM, etc.

Sorry guys... Analysis Paralysis, too afraid to spend money and make a mistake :P But thanks for suggestions/help... keep it coming, I need all the support I can get :P

-A

quote:

Originally posted by Bazz:

Well,..you do have a point. BUT, 24 ch's of RADAR A/D is still less than 24 of Apogee I reckon

The way I figure it (since I already have a console and plenty of outboard),

Alesis HD24 + 3 RME ADI-8s = about $6,000

Alesis HD24 + 3 Apogee Rosetta 800s = about $10,000

RADAR classic plus = $15,000

Summary: good, better, best -or- expensive, expensive as hell, pretty goddamn expensive

Ah, pardon me..I thought that Apogee Rosetta's were more than that. I haven't looked in awile as I haven't had the need.

I guess my RADAR comment was based on that fact that I was offered a Classic 24 for 10K CDN awhile back..Maybe b/c they're a local company, there's more around? Dunno.

All I know is that for some stuff I'm working on right now, there's 3 studios I have in mind, all have RADAR.

I'll tell you this much. If I had a Rosetta 800 or 3 dropped in my lap, I'd be --> <-- I could careless about the guys that say RADAR is better..

Oh yeah I hear you--at that level it's what shade of "great" you want.


I'll tell you if a RADAR classic plus (with the controller) dropped in front of me for 5 grand I'd sell the stuff I have now and be all over it. But at 15 large new...damn that's a spicy meataballuh

I was sort of thinking something simple(er).

A G5 with Apogee Ensemble: http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/ensemble.php

Add UAD DSP plugs (when the PCI-e gets resolved, etc).

Supposedly the same converters as Rosetta.

Try to go completely virtual? I don't know.

Thats really up to you. Apogee Ensemble sounds like a good deal, but its not really used and tried with reviews to consider no??
With the ensemble it will say what DAW you should use -at this point. Do you use Logic now? If not , it could be a whole new ball o wax!! Are you ready to move to a MAC in general?
Choose your environment, then consider the convertors IMO.

T

Hah, sorry we derailed your thread, 1adam12!


The Ensemble pacakge looks nice, but tonio makes good points--is your DAW ready for it?

I was also intrigued by the ensemble but then read it's only for MAC's

The RADAR's do rock. And depending on the way you want to work, a DAW doesn't necessarily have to be tacked on. I used my RADAR for nearly three years for both tracking and mixing - for "mastering" or CD burning I'd fly the two track WAV's in to Sound Forge or CD Arcitect. AcidPro 6 just released and it's got many DAW-like features. I've been playing around with it for the past couple of weeks and I have to admit that the prospect of automation and recall is most intriguing. I'm considering tracking to RADAR then flying tracks out to Acid for editing for those clients that want or need that kind of thing.

Just my two pence, but I'd place conversion a tad higher on the list that some folks - be it RADAR, Apogee, Mytek, Benchmark, whatever. While there's certainly no substitute for a well crafted, well performed song, all the nuance of your outboard can be affected by how well (or poorly) the conversion gets it into the recording medium. Of course, not to be forgotten is how one uses that outboard. Proper mic placement, outboard selection, a good sounding room, overall skills etc, all play important roles.

That's what I've always heard -- well recently anyway -- is that converters make or break the project. If you get a Rosetta or two or a RADAR, then you're in good shape right out of the box.

Once again it sort of sounds like the tired old Chevy Vs. Ford argument. I've heard guys stack their Rosettas up against the Nyquists and Graces, etc. Disclaimer - I've never seen a Grace Designs in action, thought they only made the small portable pre w/ AD conversion... So... what can ya do? :P

My guess is that you just buy the best converters you can afford that are of Pro Audio quality and you should be safe, no?

I would agree with this...get the best you can afford...

FWIW: Great recordings have been made on POS ADATs, bigger POS Tascam DA88s, biggest POS Akai DR4, etc...conversion, while an important element, is not as critical as mic choice/placement, pres, etc...and the person operating all that stuff.

2d FWIW: I've seen/heard the S-Nyquist Radar in action, and yes, it is a wonder to behold...if I had the cash, there would be one in here tomorrow...BUT the best ADDA on the planet doesn't mean squat if your monitor system is incapable of reproducing the often miniscule differences between say a Radar and a FF800...

3rd FWIW: I have heard a Williams modded HD24...gives the Radar a serious competitor at a fraction of the cost...doesn't have the 'star appeal' that a Radar has, though...

4th (and last) FWIW: Only YOU can decide what is the best sounding conversion, based on your needs, your chain (from mic to playback speakers), to your finances. Find the balance point between cost and sound, and work from there. Many hits have been launched from RME, Digidesign, Frontier Design, Apogee, Mytek, Lavry, Mackie, Prism, MOTU, Cranesong, and even Alesis and Behringer...

1adam12, what's your budget and how many channels of converters do you need?