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Studio Forums Main Index The Listening Sessions Session 5 - Large Diaphragm & Tube Mics - Larrivée Acoustic Guitar|
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6th kyu |
Dan,
One more thing I keep wondering about: Was the general position of these mics in the same place relative to the guitar, or was the placement "optimized" for each mic? |
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Mod Kyudan  |
Tim, "All mics were positioned approximately 12" away from the twelfth fret of the guitar. The height of the mic diaphragms were lined up with the neck."
I do have some pics of Session 5 I'll post in the Gallery soon. Dan Richards Digital Pro Sound The Listening Sessions |
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6th kyu |
quote:Thanks.  |
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6th kyu |
I thought I’d relay a very short story where this listening session proved helpful.
I have a close friend who performs regularly with a bluegrass band. Their live mic setup consist of only one LDC mic (a lot of B.G. bands are doing that these days). Seems like every time I talk to him, he’s always telling me about the "mic-of-the-day" LDC they’re trying out. When I last spoke with him, he told me they were having much success with the CAD E-100 because the gain-before-feedback was much higher than any other LCD they had tried. It was then I remembered my own comment here about how the E-100 didn’t pick up as much "room" sound as the other LDCs. So it stands to reason that it works better for live sound, and in practice proves to be correct. |
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CityBilly Yondan  |
Hey Dot, Thanks for the new session. My question is about the KSM series mics. I have a couple and hardly ever see anything about them in the forums. I was hoping to be able to compare them here.
Is there a reason they are not included, or is it just one of those things? I realise you can't include every mic. I do see the KSM 32 in your mic closet listing though. This is not a dis, really I'm just curious. |
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Mod Kyudan |
Hi j6p, we have a couple of KSM series small condensers that we're recording with. More Shure KSM will follow later. What's on the list of mics are only ones that have been confirmed. We're well over 100 and are really just in our first round.
There's much more coming later - but we gotta' start somewhere. : ) Dan Richards Digital Pro Sound The Listening Sessions |
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CityBilly Yondan |
I know you've gotta start somewhere. I was just curious. I have a couple of KSM 27s I like. I saw th 32 on your list. Just not used in the large condesor session, is all.
I think I have a complex,  'cause I never see much discussed about them. That's all. Thanks |
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6th kyu |
quote: How long before I can get a "flat-pick" CD? quote:I know I'm waffling, but I'd like to retract that statement. I really like the B1 and B3 here... I'll try and refrain from such foolish behavior in the future! |
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Mod Kyudan |
Hey, Tim. We're looking at getting the TLS online store and the CD's ready by August.
Dan Richards Digital Pro Sound The Listening Sessions |
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6th kyu |
I just stumbled on The Listening Sessions about a week ago and figured I'd drop in my humble 2c (and my first post!). Great forum, by the way, with lots of insightful posts! Dan, thanks to you and your crew for putting out The Listening Sessions. I'm just getting into live recording. The sessions have shed a ton of light for me on mic selection as I'm just starting to build mine and would like to buy mics that I won't want to unload later. Up 'til now, I've basically been working in the dark (or is that silence?) on mic selection. While these are by far not scientific in study or control, they've allowed me to understand more of how different mics color sound. Also, it's now easier to make relative comparisons between several mics in a consistent environment. That goes a long ways when you're just beginning, and definitely adds to the anecdotal evidence posted by both amateurs and pros on forums and newsgroups. It also helps that I’ve played the Larrivée DV-05 before and own a Larrivée myself, so it helps me further understand the tonal changes. I think the most interesting part of these sessions is that most of the recordings sound very nice and would be very usable for me, and some are similar enough that, if not compared side-by-side to each other couldn’t be well differentiated with another. (or maybe this is just to my pair of ears-in-training) ;-) I’ve learned a lot from my people here and on rec.audio.pro. So, thanks to you all!! As far as live recording goes, I don’t know how much help I’ll be to you guys right now, but maybe with some experience under my belt I can help another beginner down the road! Thanks Dan and everyone else on this forum! |
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6th kyu |
By the way, I'm looking forward to the CD's and if you release them, hi-def recordings such as DVD-A!
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None of the Above 1st kyu |
I certainly have enjoyed listening to Session 5, as well as the others. I'm an acoustic guitarist and Session 5 (as well as parts of Session 1) interest me most.
I have some constructive thoughts on your future efforts. Please understand that I make these comments from the standpoint of an acoustic guitar player, first and foremost, and as a budding recording engineer, second. 1) The Larrivee DV-05 is a mid level guitar. It's OK, but it's nothing to write home about. More problematic, however, is that it's a dreadnaught, which is notoriously fickle and generally crummy for recording. I would suggest you record a mid sized instrument, such as an OM, next time. More amplitude, tonal and sustain balance all around. The mahogany/sitka spuce wood combination in the DV-05 is a very good choice, although many might want to hear the mic comparisons with East Indian rosewood/Sitka Spruce woods. 2) The fingerstyle performer in the Sessions played rather softly and did not use the dynamic range of the instrument. More importantly, however, his right hand tone prouction was mediocre and inconsitent. I would suggest a more accomplished player, with significanly better right hand chops. I'm afraid I'm sounding like an elitist. Nevertheless, if there's anything I've learned about the recording process, it's that the closer you get to the source, the more important things are. Having a great guitar, played well, should help with evaluating mics. -- Stephen Boyke |
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Mod Kyudan |
Hi sdelsolray, thanks for your comments and on some I completely agree with you. I'm fine with the dreadnaught, but I'd also requested on OM model from Larrivee originally, and they chose to send the DV-05. "Mid level" it might be to an elitist, but that guitar plays and sounds better to me than anything I can buy in the shops, such as Taylor, Takamine, Tacoma. Of course, it's not a boutique acoustic - and I feel using an ultra high-end guitar would be overboard.
We do present the budget mics through a Millennia HV-3 mic pre, which is a higher-end pre than most people using these mics are going to use. And in some way I don't feel it's fair to "stack the deck" and present the mics in an overly better light than they would normally be used in the real world. We're working on getting an OM model as well. I do think, in all fairness though, that in real-world recordings of most people who would buy any of these budget mics, that a dreadnaught would be the most common guitar used. On the playing, that was me, and although I can play better under other conditions, I agree the performances were certainly not stellar - but we're listening to mics here, not acoustic guitars. The day that was scheduled for the recordings I was the only guitarist available. We have, sometimes, very small windows to do these recordings. I hadn't planned to play the guitar that day, and ended up doing so at the last minute. I was also the person who changed out each mic in between takes - so I wore quite a few hats in the session. Such is the nature of recordings like this - unless you have a nice budget available, which so far we do not. We have also made other recordings which will be available on CD - the idea being, that while we make MP3's available for free on the web - it is, admittedly, not the better recordings that are released that way. Still, I do think the mics are well demonstrated, and that was main objective. The Large Diaphragm Condenser Mic CD coming out has female vox, male vox and acoustic guitar strummed with a pick. Dan Richards Digital Pro Sound The Listening Sessions [This message was edited by Dot on 09-27-03 at 05:27 AM.] |
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None of the Above 1st kyu |
Well, let me put my foot in my mouth. Sorry Dan. I didn't mean to criticize your playing. I understand too that, at least with Session 5, you are comparing mostly lower end LDs. Good choice on the Millenia pre. Colorless and honest.
Nevertheless, if in any future sessions involving fingerstyle guitar you have an oportunity to use an OM, I beleive it would be helpful -- Stephen Boyke |
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Mod Kyudan |
Oh, sdelsolray, I don't think you put your foot in your mouth, and I think some of your criticism is valid.
Dan Richards Digital Pro Sound The Listening Sessions |
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2nd kyu |
Well, I’m a perfectionist when I’m playing, but not necessarily when someone else is.
 As far as Session 5 goes, I guess I just paid more attention to the sound rather than the player. The playing style and guitar was actually useful to me because of the way Dan was coming up on the high strings simultaneously playing two notes every now and then. It sort of produced a “clang” that was essential in determining whether or not the mic distorted the high end. Some mics reproduced the “clang” with a harsh result and got the “thumbs down”, while the smooth “clangs” got the “thumbs up”. The rest were in the middle of the road between harsh and smooth. |
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6th kyu |
quote: Totally. Well said. That Boyke character is always coming down on people for being less of a guitar expert than he. What an instant turn-off. BTW, the 4047 got my heart pounding. I thought it was vibe-drenched and I got a big emotional surge out of the take. Probably has something to do with how much the mic smoothed out the "clangs". Me like mics with transformers (my U195 sounds something like the 4047). I think we're all in agreement that the TLM 103 sounded like bony ass. Thin and flinty and not sexy. Thanks Dan for another great round of mp3s! David Tobocman www.edgewisemusic.com |
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6th kyu |
Oh yeah, and Dan, NICE PLAYING! Not only are you a cool altruistic guy, you can really play. Keep it up!
That Boyke guy is just a demeaning pseudo-intellectual, typical guitarist "I could've done it so much better" sort of downer-type. You are just shoveling so much positivity into the universe by conducting these comparisons and posting the results FOR FREE. I hope some of your good vibes comes back to you once in a while. Thanks for all of your generosity and enthusiasm! David Tobocman www.edgewisemusic.com |
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6th kyu |
man the great river makes everything sound good...I can't believe I passed it up for an a.r.t. it was the cost ...but man.....I'm going back for the mp2.......gotta put in some more hours.....love that mic-pre.....only thing is that when doing bass they all sound equally well to me....my opinion...one or two had a better punch but somewhat similar.....and the vintage RCA you need to put that more in the tests....thats a beutiful sounding mic....wow what a professional sound need a a little de essing but other than that nothing beats it.....I have a rode ntk and would love to hear that on some of your vocals on the great river pre. pre please pre pre please
the roar of the big cat in the studio.... |
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None of the Above 1st kyu |
quote: So sensitive are we? I am a guitarist first, and will take an opportunity to discuss information about fingerstyle acoustic guitar when it is the source instrument in recording comparisons. The source the most important part of the signal chain. If you read what I originally said to Dot, objectively, you'll notice it contained two simple constructive thoughts. The first was a comment on the Larrivee instrument. The second was on the tonal production of the right hand of the player. Both of these observations dealt with the source of the sound. It was meant to be constructive, not some as elitist pronunciation. You'd admit that recording acoustic guitar well is quite a challenge. It is not an easy instrument to record accurately. I apologize if you think making such observations are elitist or, as you put it, "[a] demeaning pseudo-intellectual, typical guitarist". I could respond that your comments are from a "typical frustrated RE wannabe", but I won't because I don't know you. In any event, we are here to share information. I choose to do just that. If the information contains an ounce of constructive criticism, so be it. On the other hand, if I want to rave about something, I'll do that too. That's what we do in America. BTW, I agree that the 103 didn't sound great in the sessions. It can do well, although it is particualr with placement. It can also work well mixed with another mic. I actually liked the AKG SolidTube somewhat. Not hyped, but potentially a little muddy. I'm still in search of those "great" recording chains. Fortunately, I only have to worry about fingerstyle guitar (me). Its a fascinating journey. -- Stephen Boyke |
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Studio Forums Main Index The Listening Sessions Session 5 - Large Diaphragm & Tube Mics - Larrivée Acoustic Guitar