quote:

For example, are the vocal issues because its what it takes to get them sounding good in a challenged space?

No...the vocal "issues" are I love the sound...and other people don't.

I would argue the 10x12 "box" I recorded all the others in was challenged in a way I could hear when it came to vox...and everyone loved it. It's a different chain. That's what they don't like. It was 87ai>GreatRiver>La3a...and this one is the Innertube87>MilleniaHv3>TubeTech CL1b...one is quite aggressive and foward sounding all the way through, and one is really smooth sounding all the way through. I think they're seperate issues--what Dan hears in the room and what people are commenting about the vocal "needing EQ" and "not being foward enough"....not there couldn't be improvement with treatment...but, it won't recitfy what people are missing.

Resistance is Futile.........Treat the room and send pictures and reciepts to prove it. LOL.

Rocky

Yep...waiting for those instructions.

Just like mics.......... I guess you will never know until you try.

quote:

Pop, I don't hear a boxy mix..............

Yeah, that's because your room's all fucked up .

Hahaha. Nice.

quote:

Originally posted by kid-surf:

Pop in some instances I think this room treatment stuff is to appear cool, I really do.... "hey looks more like a studio, now I feel better". (no one's gonna change my mind about that so don't bother trying. thank you all for respecting that)

To some degree, yeah... But check out some of Nick's 4" panels and tell me they are purely cosmetic... The difference 2 panels can make in a small room is extreme. I personally have never noticed a difference with Auralex foam.

But more isn’t always better… I wouldn't start throwing treatment around if I was Pop… I would just move things around and perhaps purchase/rig-up a few gobo’s…

One thing I was shocked by in Ronan's studio is that his live room had virtually NO treatment at all (I remember he had 1 3-4' 1" piece of bare 703 in 1 corner of a room about your size.), and it sounded better than any room I had heard up to that point...

I came home gutted my walls and was shocked to realize that my own room (what I started with) sounded even better to me than Ronan's once I got rid of all the acoustic treatment bullshit… Of course I went a wee-bit… OK a shit-load overboard in my small rooms.

I've played around with materials (Nick's 703-based panels (both mounted and tea-bagged ), Primacoustic Freeports, Auralex foam, and an ASC tower trap) quite a bit, and have come to some really unique conclusions based on my rooms...

With drums, the less shit in my 11x13 room the bigger they sound...

With acoustic guitar a FreePort behind the mic and behind me got the richest sound...

On vocals pretty much the same thing...

On electric guitar (2x12) I really like the tight lows I get from one of Nick's hinged panels delivered 3-4' in front of the cab... Or the resonating lows and tight high end I get from sticking a Primacoustc FreePort in the same place…

quote:

Kid-Surf
My monitors now are about the biggest nearfields there are. Still, no surprise mix probs. Low end? I know exactly where I'm at.

Genelec 1032A’s are nearfeilds? Even if they are mid-fields you should try putting another 2-3’ between them… I have 9’ between my KRK V8’s now and they sound 10X better than when I only had 6’… Even in my small room… It takes up nearly the entire room, but it sounds soooo much better.

I have noticed a lot of people that don't have a big analog mixer, and mix on screen place their monitors really close together because they sit so close to their table, or to save space... I did this for years. In most cases unless you have midget-near-fields, it's simply WRONG.

For a cool trick... Get something MONSTEROUS between the speakers like I did! I have a 6' tall ASC Tower Trap that's built like a sofa between my monitors that absorbs down to 30hz...

It makes the image so much bigger... It literally sounds like a 3rd speaker and pop vocals just seem to come out of no where like a good pair of headphones....

I'm not sure if that screws up the accuracy of the sound or not, but the folks at ASC claim the tower trap is made just for that purpose and it fucking rocks at it. I don't care if it's accurate or not, I am and always have been more of a music-fan than a mixer...

Another thing I have discovered is that foam on the back wall doesn't seem to do shit in my rooms... But foam in the form of a FreePort a foot from the wall improves the sound hands down... I was so pissed off about the build quality of the FreePort’s for so long that I kind of forgot about their functionality..

I don't claim to be even an amateur acoustician, but I have spent more time than most home-studioist dicking around with an assortment of materials and products… And it is my opinion that it’s a very dark art to be taken very seriously with an open ear… and mind.

Assume there is always something terribly wrong with your acoustics until proven otherwise no matter how much time and money you have spent. Because we grow so accustom to our surroundings that it’s really hard to tell… It’s too easy to assume that what is right for one room will be right for another… In my experience EACH SOURCE on each project needs it’s own consideration as well… This is not to say that I don’t believe some rooms just suck and some sound great… But if you are trying to create a room that sounds great… Best of luck to you. If I was you, I would use more diffusers than absorbers. Well designed diffusers not only break up standing waves, but they can also absorb with a flatter frequency response than foam. And then use movable baffles to alter the tone. Bass traps (not broadband absorbers) are cool if you are certain which frequency range is causing you problems, but can really screw shit up if you get it wrong… Hefty 703-based absorbers seem to be overkill to me in a “generic” tracking room unless they are easily controllable…

Remember acoustics are more of a science than an art, and they have nothing to do with visual aesthetic or market share. Keep in mind that the only difference between a great acoustic guitar and a complete shit box might be a quarter inch change in design, choice of wood, or quality of the cut.

I do believe that you, Yngwie Pop Vaughnn have a good ear and can improve the acoustics in your room… But only if you remember that even if you bought all the right stuff (which is hiiighly unlikely), slightly poor placement could make your room worse than it already is.

******************8

The tracks on your latest track are very clean and open sounding, Pop. But there definitely is a boxy characteristic I am hearing in the electric guitar and vocals… They seem to have a truncated stereo image and missing a presence in the low-mids. I think it was probably hidden better with compression and EQ on more modern sounding tunes such as Lose You, I also think the vocals are lacking an inviting micro-dynamic and aren’t ever as loud or soft as they should be to my ear…

But to each his own… That was not a critique on skills, but more of a difference in style.

-Dusty

Yeah... The "WRONG" thing kind of sounded well, WRONG to me once I got away from the computer and gave it some thought.

I don't take music too seriously anymore. Now it's more of a hobby that I put on the backburner to other, less competitive and admittedly less productive time sinks such as sleeping and channel surfing.

I really don't care too seriously about all this anymore. I'm just bored and think I have a unique perspective on this topic since I was once such an avid tweaker with more time and money than musical ambition... Now I just have time.

I do see your point on the speaker separation subject, Mr. Surf. But in general professionals seem to have lots of room between their speakers (I bet Ronan has 10-12' between his Event 20/20's), while I RARELY see more than 6-7' in pictures of home studios that I've seen...

I seem to remember reading a generic chart that outlined the basic spacing between speakers in different classes, but I can't find it now.

While agreeably, not wrong... I do think it's something more home/project-studio owners should consider looking in to.

I should have stuck with my guns on the spacing issue and preserved my likable conviction.. But I suppose it is far more entertaining to flip-flop… with excessive conviction.

-Dusty

quote:

Originally posted by kid-surf:
Listen to my mixes then tell me that.

Let's hear some! I can't find any of your stuff in the Music Station or any links in your profile anywhere.

I always like hearing the "pudding" from folks - though as far as I can tell Dusty never actually records anything and it doesn't stop him from shooting his mouth off.

(and more power to ya, buddy...)
Chris

Actually I've recorded plenty, and posted plenty... Plenty of shit.

I am sort of in a different paradigm than most of you musicians…

Yes, I play, yes I write and have a studio... But I’m a student, not a recording artist.

My cup is still empty… The confidence relayed in my writing is just an ego-shield. Some people just assume bullshit said with great conviction must be true, while others knock it right out of the park and teach me a thing or two. It’s a win-win situation, No?

If I wanted to record cheesy punk or country demos I'd be set... But what's the point of that? Fun? Ego-building? I find getting trashed, laid or both a great deal more entertaining, less time consuming, and much more enlightening than writing and recording music that means nothing to me.

I want to be an master-innovator in all related fields: Writing, performing, engineering and production. It sounds ambitious, but it’s necessary to create what I want to create.

When I can, I will... Until then I'll attempt to learn how, and practice my writing. I am an English major and some day, wish to supplement my gear budget, writing flip-floppy, dodgy drafts. -- With conviction. The forums are just my chosen dojo.

-Dusty

quote:

I want to be an master-innovator in all related fields: Writing, performing, engineering and production.

I just want Kate Beckinsale to love me. We're dreamers me and you...

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:

I just want Kate Beckinsale to love me. We're dreamers me and you...

Yeah Pop. And I hope to God that the world doesn't join us someday. Jessica Alba and I are getting a bit crowded as it is!

-Dusty

Nah...quit smoking...she'd make me start again. You know those British chicks and their fags. :P Has Underworld2 premiered out there yet?

quote:

Originally posted by kid-surf:
BTW -- Pop I have Kate's #, you want it?

Cool... Do you have Jessica Alba's?

-Dusty

Libidos aside...

So, I'm looking at the Primacoustic panels you're talking about, Dusty. You know what feature would taotally sell me on these finacially?

If they would make the things slide up and down on the frames...so that you could position it low to the floor like the "GT" panels...then slide it up the frame to stand tall like the "XT&SD" panels. Being able to turn/flip them would be cool as well. See, you could get four...say $600ish...and have them surround you for vocals(standing)...down and over a guitar amp...maybe I need to design my own.

As an acoustics guy I'd say surf and I have VERY different opinions on the subject.

Pop, primeacoustic stuff isn't bad. Have you seen my TeaBagz? They can be mounted on mic stands so they can do exactly what you were wanting from the primeacoustics stuff yet they are much less expensive and more effective.

The new ones are made of a black velcro material. They can be velcroed together while in a semi circle or velcroed to the wall to treat the room as a whole. When you need a vocal booth you can make a vocal booth. If you need a guitar amp "tent" you can make one. The versatility is what makes them so great.

Nick Fournier

Velcro.jpg (234 Kb, 18 downloads)

I stapled velcro stips to the wall and simply stuck the panel to the wall.

Nick Fournier

ACOUSTIC_PANEL.jpg (261 Kb, 21 downloads)

You have an extra "w" in your sig web link...FYI.

The FreePorts costs about $200 more than they should, IMHO...

And Markertek got me for $60 shipping (without my consent, and had to have my SS# to get through customs) because the only North American distributor at the time was in Canada.

But they do work and the foam looks nice (the PVC legs are wobbly and butt ugly though)... I have mine behind a desk so the legs aren't really an issue...

If I was you I would check out some of Nick's hinged panels that can more than handle the low-mids as well as the high's, in conjunction with something foamy like the FreePort's...

You could also discuss with Nick about rigging some of his panels on a mic stand or check out Ethan Winer's stand-mountable real traps.

In the very least, you should grab a few 1 or 2” thick pieces of 703 and experiment. Wrap them in porous cloth with safety pins on the back so the lip of the cloth hangs on a stand. It’s a 10 dollar, 10 minute solution.

Those would probably perform at the same level as FreePort’s without costing you 3 bills plus shipping… And probably not look too much shittier.

The GT's are just stackable 703 panels at preposterous prices aren't they?

I may sell my FreePort's some day soon... But I've started to kind of dig them suave and sophisticated stationary back-wall absorbers.

-Dusty

kid, I'm trying to be real nice here. This topic is about Pop's studio. Not your studio. How did this turn into another kid topic?

Pop records in his studio, and because of that he has a different set of acoustical standards than you do. You work with computers and instrument samples that have already been recorded for you. This has much less to do with mixing and a whole lot more to do with the sound of the room he's recording in. I'm sure, kid, that all those expensive sound libraries you use were all recorded in pro studios, concert halls, and in very nice spaces that were designed and acoustically treated for such purposes.

You guys carry on in this topic. I'll start another one when I get a chance - and finish out my thoughts.