Hi everyone:

I was hoping some folks could give me insight on how to improve these mixes. These tracks were recorded under fairly inhospitable conditions (time; space, equipment, performance restraints I can detail if you're really interested) and we frankly were amazed any musicianship shone thru at all. These 3 songs are mainly for a gig demo. For a production release we'd go into a studio.

Anyhoo, I'd still like to improve my craft. I figure my main problems are likely EQ-related.

Please note all I have for reference is partial MP3 clips and then RealPlayer streaming audio (MP3s). Is that bad? I haven't gotten around to putting up full-length downloads yet on the site.

Any feedback appreciated. If Real streams bother you let me know.

Thanks

URL: http://www.zspmusic.com

Hey, look, something to click: http://www.zspmusic.com

[This message was edited by geekgurl on 10-07-03 at 10:22 PM.]

Well...this is more Jazzooo's territory, style-wise...but, the bass was no where near loud enough, IMO.

On avenida, the guitar is WAY too loud...and the keys too sfot to hear. Fiesta's mix fared better.

I don't really hear it as "muddy" , though. What are you doing EQing a jazz performance, anyway?

Maybe Jazzooo could give you the 411...

I found that the drums lacked definition that is usually an integral part of the jazz ensemble sound. I didn't detect too much cymbal sound at all.
I won't ask how these were recorded because you have already expressed intent to have these charts done in a studio.
I liked the writing, playing, and arranging.
As an engineer, I try to do all my EQ'ing with mic placement. This is tedious and time consuming, but the results are very rewarding. Mind you, it doesn't always work out ideally, but it's a good start. The less I have to add to or subtract from any signal the better off my mix will be.
Look for Doug Robinson's (JAZZOO)'s reply. He should be able to add volumes to what you've read so far.

KenMeister :cool

It is better to try and fail, than to never try at all.

Hey, geekgurl--

Nice effort! I've only listened to Avenida (I'm slowed down by the curse of being on dial up), but I'll give you my two cents:

I like the Larry Carltonesque guitar tone, but Pop's right--it doesn't sit in the mix, it dominates it. It's nothing fancy, just...turn it down! If it was recorded live in one take, then move the mic further from the guitar amp. When the solo started towards the end (only listened to the shorter snippet), I felt it should grow out of the ensemble, not sit on top of it.

You need to get more bass guitar and kick drum onto thse recordings--bottom is very important and often overlooked. Again, move the mic closer to the bass amp, or turn it up on the console.

I heard the drums as sounding good and clear, but too soft. If your guitarist is a wild egomaniac, then your studio recordings will sound pretty much like this! I like things more equal, and letting the nature of the individual parts tell you which you should focus on at any given time, as opposed to making it so obvious by dramtica volume differences.

The playing was spirited!

I'll listen to another clip and feedback.

www.dougrobinson.com

No luck with playing the files through QuickTime. I don't have Real Player on my computer. geekgirl, do you have any MP3 files around of the music?

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

There's just not enough definition.

This doesn't sound like a mixing issue. Well, somewhat with the balance, obviously. But even with better balance, I still don't think the bass sounds right. The bassist needs to use the right pickups, the right strings, amp settings, and playing technique in order to have proper definition and to cut through. And it doesn't sound like he/she was doing that.

www.moonunitsound.com

Man I hate Real Player audio...it sounds like it's underwater...

Hard to tell what may be a solution with my ears anyhow, cause it's so grainy. Overall sounds like this band jams pretty nicely...guitar is definitely loud.

Warren

Stuff I mess with...

"Ah, I want to just enjoy this, sip a nice Merlot, dip into my hot tub, and then perhaps stone a kitten to death or something."-Jazzoo

Guys...just FYI, she said WAV files...they are really mp3 clips. Screw the Real streams.

Thanks for the replies so far, everyone.

I've been doing some research and I think maybe one of the main problems is that I shouldn't have rolled off bottom end on the bass track and maybe I rolled too much off the kick? Yes I did that, and if that sounds like a rookie mistake, well, that's cuz I'm a rookie!

Keith, that's an interesting comment about the bass playing, but I really don't think the playing is a problem ... and I'm not saying that just because I was the bassist on these tracks! (really, I don't have much ego attached to it since I'm really the keyboard player.) I've just had too many compliments on the bass playing to think it could be that wack. But maybe it is, I dunno.

I wish I wasn't on dialup. It seems that graininess and translation issues are making RealPlayer a bad format for this ... I can attempt to put full clips up of these songs but it takes a long time and my dialup connection seems to like to kick me off in the middle of FTPing sometimes. I know there are utilities that allow one to "chop up" the files and send them in smaller chunks, but what a hassle, which is why it hasn't gotten done. But I appreciate all of you for participating with feedback, and now I really feel I should give you better format to work with. If I can't successfully load full-lenth MP3s I guess I could maybe send CDs out if you want them and PM me ... what about that?

As for the guitar being too loud, that's simply my fault. I had reasoned that it was the melodic, out-front instrument, and I overcompensated I guess. The guitarist is not an egomaniac at all so he wouldn't care if I turned it down, I bet.

Anyway, I'll try to send full-length MP3 of at least one song. Sorry about the delivery method thus far.

Hey, look, something to click: http://www.zspmusic.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Popmann:
Guys...just FYI, she said WAV files...they are really mp3 clips. Screw the Real streams.

---

Sorry, yes, I meant MP3! So I take it that's really bad ...

Hey, look, something to click: http://www.zspmusic.com

I can't believe so many are complaining about graininess--I'm on dial up and her clips sound raelly clean to me. Not enough bass, but now we know why!

www.dougrobinson.com

quote:

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So I take it that's really bad ...

---

I didn't listen to the streams. I haven't had dial up in years. I've gotten used to not hearing Real streams. I didn't mean they were bad...just that mp3 clips were small enough to just grab them.

I realize now that "screw the Real streams" without a good after might've seemed harsh. Apologies-not intended that way.

The guitar is definitely taking the Lion's share of the mix. From here the bass/drums could use maybe comp/boosting, but I'd start with pulling the guitar back. Everything sounds like it was recorded in the same "hall like space" and by some first rate players.

Very nice live feel!

Stixxs

www.stillwater-studios.com

First and foremost I am a hobbyist and don't really know what I'm talking about. If it was me though, I would either turn the bass and the drums up or turn everything else down, especially the guitar. I agree with Stixxs in that the recording sounds clean. I also agree with Warhead and I hate the real player as well. Avenida del Mar is a hot song, keep it up.

OK, thanks for the additional input. Heh, Popmann, I'm pretty gullible when it comes to this stuff as you can see. I really feel that now I should put better-quality stuff up there (for those of you who detect the graininess) to download. When I put these up I was just thinking in terms of promoters, gig bookers, and the occasional interested listener hearing it, etc. In retrospect I guess it's kinda hard to comment on a mix if the delivery method does certain things to the sound to degrade it.

Jazzooo, please allow to me clarify the obvious ... I SHOULDN'T be rolling off bottom end on bass guitar, right? Man, that sounds so stupid now that I write that. I was all concerned about taking up lower frequencies people's systems don't translate (cuz I heard that somewhere), but I think I wound up putting more energy into other frequencies and therefore making less definition overall. I think "less definition" would've been better than "muddy" to describe my concern.

What about kick? I've hear that rolling off kick is common practice?

Look out kids, she knows just enough about EQ to be very, very dangerous!

Hey, look, something to click: http://www.zspmusic.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by geekgurl:
OK, thanks for the additional input. Heh, Popmann, I'm pretty gullible when it comes to this stuff as you can see. I really feel that now I should put better-quality stuff up there (for those of you who detect the graininess) to download. When I put these up I was just thinking in terms of promoters, gig bookers, and the occasional interested listener hearing it, etc. In retrospect I guess it's kinda hard to comment on a mix if the delivery method does certain things to the sound to degrade it.

Jazzooo, please allow to me clarify the obvious ... I SHOULDN'T be rolling off bottom end on bass guitar, right? Man, that sounds so stupid now that I write that. I was all concerned about taking up lower frequencies people's systems don't translate (cuz I heard that somewhere), but I think I wound up putting more energy into other frequencies and therefore making less definition overall. I think "less definition" would've been better than "muddy" to describe my concern.

What about kick? I've hear that rolling off kick is common practice?

Look out kids, she knows just enough about EQ to be very, very dangerous!

Hey, look, something to click: http://www.zspmusic.com
__________________

I personally "roll off" at 40Hz in "mastering" and notch at 350Hz, when needed.

In tracking, first trying to get the best possible signal then ... boost/cut bass gtr. at appr. 100Hz Kick at appr. 80Hz.

Stixxs

www.stillwater-studios.com

Hey Geekgirl,


Speaking as a bassist, I admire how he/she is playing. There's obviously some talent going on there . . . but I still think there could be more definition by way of either the bass itself, whatever the knobs were set to, or whatever it was plugged in to. That's really more what I was getting at.

As far as rolling off lows, It really depends on what kind of rolling off you're doing, and where it's being done. If you're talking about rolling off from 40 hz on down, then I don't think there's a whole lot more down there you'll be missing other than rumble and mud that most speakers can't reproduce anyway.

On the kick, though, I would definitely do a wide cut of the mids without a lot of remorse. You could also do a low-cut shelf of everything below 2 khz and/or a narrow boost at about 3 khz to get more beater click/slappage. That kind of thing.

On the bass gee-tar, you could try cutting off everything below, say, 50 hz, maybe 40. Just be sure to listen closely to how it affects the mix; if it sounds like it's missing something then don't do it. If it sounds like it's suddenly revealing things, then go with it. For definition, 800-1000 hz is usually your magic frequency range (you've probably heard it a zillion times, but it is usually true).

www.moonunitsound.com

"Your mileage might vary, but only on the second and fourth Thursdays of every month in which there is a full moon on a Wednesday. And even then, only between the hours of 6-12pm."