I posted this thread and never got around to posting clips. I haven't updated my studio journal in I don't know how long, and I haven't put up any music in ages. So I thought I would kill a few birds with the proverbial single stone.

I play drums in a band called Traded To Racine. They've been playing for a number of years now, but I joined in February of last year. We've been working on a 3 song EP for almost a year now, and it's finally nearing completion. It is being sent out for replication this week, so we should have the finished product in a couple weeks. In addition to playing drums, I tracked and mixed the record at my studio. It was mastered by Alan Douches at West West Side.

We initially intended for the entire project to take no more than a couple of months but it turned into an extremely drawn out process. We had some issues during tracking (which I'll get to in a bit), mixing was postponed a number of times because of other projects at the studio, communication lines were crossed up during mastering, artwork took forever, etc. All in all, we're going to be very happy to be finished with these songs.

The tracks are more like movements of a whole than individual tracks. They are linked together and are intended to be listened to collectively. Most everything was tracked with the same setup, except for guitars and some vocals, but I did do some reamping during the mix.

We demoed the songs at our warehouse on a cassette 4-track so we could get a rough idea for tempo and also figure out arrangements and time signatures. We tried doing some scratch tracks, but they were more of a pain than a help. In the end, I tracked drums to a click and then the other instruments were overdubbed to the drum track.

Everything was tracked at 88.2 K/24 bit.

Drums were tracked twice, all because I couldn't stand the floor tom sound. I tried changing head type, tuning differently, muffling, etc. In the end, the drums were moved about a foot to the right and tracked again. I also changed the overheads from X-Y to spaced pair. I regret that decision, along with not using hi-hat or ride mics; I'm not happy at all with the cymbal imaging, or lack thereof.

Drums were my old Exports with my Pork Pie Little Squealer. Snare batter was a coated Emperor, reso was an Evans Snare Side Hazy 300. Toms got coated Ambassador batters and clear Ambassador resos. Kick batter was a Powerstroke 3, reso was an ebony Powerstroke 3. Hats were an old pair of Zildjian 14" Scimitars, ride was an old Zildjian 20" A Medium Ride, hat-side crash was an 18" Zildjian A Custom Crash, ride-side crash was an 18" Zildjian A Medium Crash. Iron Cobra kick pedal with the standard felt beater.
Mics for the drums were as follows:

Room – R-122 into MOTU 896HD
OH L + R – SM-81s into Focusrite ISA 428
Kick In – D-112 into ISA 428
Kick Out – KSM-44 into ART MPA Gold
Snare Top – SM-57 into ISA 428
Snare Bottom – SM-57 into MPA Gold
Rack Tom – e604 into 896HD
Floor Tom – RE20 into 896HD








Bass was also tracked twice because of old strings and intonation issues. The bass was an oldish Fender Jazz through an old GK head into an Ampeg 8 x 10. The pictures show a compressor in the head case, but it was bypassed for recording. I mic’d the cab with an RE20, took a DI off the bass, and recorded the DI off the head. All signals went into the ISA 428.




Guitar was a huge nightmare. Intonation issues caused us to track, borrow guitars and retrack, and finally retrack with the original guitar. We tracked clean parts twice, once through a Marshall and once through my Fender Hot Rod. The Fender tracks didn’t make the record – they didn’t fit well with the distorted tracks.



Left guitar was an SG into a Marshall JCM2000 DSL100 into a 1960 slant cab. I mic’d two different speakers, one with an R-122, the other with an SM-57. Both mics went into the ISA 428. The setup was the same for both distorted and clean tracks.





Right guitar was an old Fender Mustang into a Marshall JCM2000 TSL100 into a 1960 slant cab. This time I mic’d the same speaker with the R-122 and SM-57 combo. Again, into the ISA 428, and same setup for both distorted and clean tracks.





For vocals I tried an RE20, SM-57, and a Shure KSM-44. The KSM-44 won out. Vocals were tracked into the ISA 428 with no compression. Some of the tracks were recorded from across the room.

For all tracks the ISA’s impedance was set to the ISA 110 setting. I think I might have had it set to high for some of the vocal tracks, but I don’t think those made the record.

At mix time, the drum room mic was crushed with a Distressor and heavily EQ’d, just with the UAD-1 Cambridge. As far as EQ and compression for the other drums:

Overheads were UAD-1 Pultec and Pro VLA with NOS Mullards.
Kick was UAD-1 1081 and Distressor.
Snare was UAD-1 Helios and Distressor.
Toms were UAD-1 1073 and UAD-1 LA3A.

Drum reverb was a Waves IR1.

Most tracks also had a Cambridge or Waves REQ for filtering.

Drum buss was compressed with a UAD-1 33609SE. I intended to switch it out, along with the guitar EQs for the full version for the printed mix, but I didn’t like how it changed the sound. Since I mixed through the SE versions, switching to the full versions softened the sound too much and I didn’t like the result.

Bass tracks were combined (mostly DI from the bass) and run through a UAD-1 1081 and compressed fairly heavily with a Distressor.

I ended up using only one of the mics for the guitar tracks. Most of the distorted tracks are SM-57, as are about half of the clean tracks. The rest are R-122. I found it was simpler to mix it that way, and it was easier to get it sounding the way I wanted. My computer was freaking out a bit and I was stretching my UAD-1 cards really thin, so the smaller track count was a big help.

Most of the guitar tracks were EQ’d with a UAD-1 1073SE. Some were done with an REQ, and most were filtered with either a Cambridge or REQ.

I used a Rumour for the guitar reverb, and also sent most of the vocals to it.

Vocals were EQ’d with a UAD-1 Helios, and I think I de-essed most of them with a Waves RDe-esser. They were then compressed with a Distressor. All vocals were sent to a UAD-1 Dimension D.

I used various delays on the guitars and vocals, from the native delay in DP to the UAD-1 Space Echo.

Everything was sent to Alan at West West Side at 88.2 K/24 bit. I have no idea what he did.

If you’d like more specific information on plugin or outboard settings, let me know. I should be able to find it written down somewhere. If you have any other questions, please ask. I’d be happy to tell you whatever you’d like to know.

The song is called "Whispers Through Branches", and it will be on our EP titled "Fourwords."

Go here to listen to it.

Any thoughts at all? Production or songwriting critiques are more than welcome.

I don't know if my opinion means anything to you, but here it comes;

I find vocals too thin, no body.
Guitars too much top & mids. Sloppy guitar playing, not defined, feels like not a firm hand, I doubt that it had much to do with intonation. That's pretty much what ruins the track, makes it very undefined, you can't really understand what's going on there. I don't even think that the amp was dialed right in the first place. You used to be the one telling me about phase issues & you were right, I was a dumbass, but I took time & learned. Now look at your 122 & 57 in your second setup, there is no way they are in phase with each other, I bet those too would sound pretty killer together if they were in phase. In addition it sounds like you had 75s in your cab, that's probably why it sounds so bright, 57 & 75 not a good combination in my experience. Try 57 & 122 on V30 or 57 on v30 & something like 421 or even 122 on 75 with less highs dialed on amp.

I tend to mention only the bad stuff most of the time

All opinions are valid, I've got no problems with anybody.

Are you talking about the first Marshall setup, or the second one? Either way, it's pretty much impossible to tell from those photographs, but the two mics were as in phase as I could get them. I didn't like the combination much on that particular setup and it would have made the mix too complicated to use both tracks anyway.

FWIW, the treble control was somewhere around 1 or 2 on the amp, and the presence was off.

I don't know what speakers were in the cabinet.

So like Nbarts says, everything seems to have this mid sheen thing going on. Vocals are a bit outta tune in that old "Men at Work" era. That is the first thing that came to mind. The low end definitely needs to be figured out. Could be the room, not sure, but it just gets muddy. Vocals and guitars seem to jut blend together due to fighting for the same freqs. I agree that the guitar tone could be killer with the mics again, could be guitar, could be amp, etc. I would kill all effects on the cab and dod that in the mix. Just makes for a tighter sound unless there is something special that the guitar player is doing. But sounds like verb to me really. 57/421 combo is alway a winner in my place too fwiw.

Definitely could be tightened up a bit. I tend to put a filter on all the cymbals and roll everything from 1K and below off. Tends to get the shinner without all the wash. Cut guitars around 250 and below and work up from there, but 250 is a good start point and let the bass guitar fill the low level gaps. Those guitars could be cut even more as they are not going anywhere near those freqs anyways how they wee played.

Start there and see what happens.

Best,

Doc

I like midrange .

I agree on the vocals, but I was explicitly asked to not use any Autotune, and to keep the vocals low in the mix. So I found it difficult to keep the vocals audible without them getting thin. I am making excuses, yes.

There were no effects on the amp for recording, no reverb at all. The only effect (for the distorted bits anyway) that was added during mix was a little bit of reverb. Not much. I'm certainly least happy with the guitar tone, and I think it stems from a combination of guitar, guitar settings (pickup choices, etc.), and amp settings. Again, I am making excuses.

The low end is another matter. I'm pretty sure my room is all kinds of messed up, despite my attempts to fix it. Beyond that, I'm just not experienced enough. I really didn't want a super modern polished sound and made a conscious decision to not use drum samples etc. I tried being more aggressive with my filtering, but it just made things sound harsh and thin to me. Again, I don't think I'm experienced enough yet, and I am making excuses.

I will certainly keep all this in mind on my next project, but I'm not going to revisit this one. At least not for a long time.

I listened on the 8040a's I was working on, and the first thing that caught me is that there isn't really a present 'center.' most of the energy is off to the sides with the guitars and there just didn't seem to be much coming from the center.

just my quik observation.

Cool. I have a real problem trying to get width, depth, and height out of my mixes. Basically, separation. I find that I end up mixing everything together rather than mixing for definition. Because I don't like things sticking out, I tend to push everything together. I need to find a way to give everything its own place while still sounding cohesive.

Which brings me to my next question: I find I consistently track things too dark when compared to commercial recordings. For example, I avoid presence in my guitar tracks while tracking because I don't like them to sound harsh. But when it comes to mix, they're too muffled and soft sounding. Do you find your guitars (for example) sound a bit hard and harsh solo'd, but don't sound that way in the mix? I know this is far too general, but any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all!

quote:

Originally posted by Contrast Recording:

Which brings me to my next question: I find I consistently track things too dark when compared to commercial recordings. For example, I avoid presence in my guitar tracks while tracking because I don't like them to sound harsh.

I know what you mean. listen to this eg of what you're talking about in the "Beat It" Solo

This [solo'd] solo sure doesn't sound like Eddie's classic "brown sound" to me...

quote:

Originally posted by Contrast Recording:
Cool. I have a real problem trying to get width, depth, and height out of my mixes. Basically, separation. I find that I end up mixing everything together rather than mixing for definition. Because I don't like things sticking out, I tend to push everything together. I need to find a way to give everything its own place while still sounding cohesive.

Which brings me to my next question: I find I consistently track things too dark when compared to commercial recordings. For example, I avoid presence in my guitar tracks while tracking because I don't like them to sound harsh. But when it comes to mix, they're too muffled and soft sounding. Do you find your guitars (for example) sound a bit hard and harsh solo'd, but don't sound that way in the mix? I know this is far too general, but any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all!

Well the solo track is definitely bright by itself, but it's not just that.

I found that the best trick bringing guitars forward without sounding harsh is boosting the presence & mids and backing down highs. I generally run presence between 2-3:00.

Another thing I've learned that a lot of big boys do is running an EQ in front of amp, cutting some 250hz to eliminate the mud & adding some mids & highs. This way I need little to no EQ later.

This said rig components play the biggest role in terms of definition & smoothness: guitar, pickups, amp, cabinet. Switching to Bogner cabinets was a big step up in terms of smoothness, pickups like classic 57s have some amazing clarity & wideness.

Another "advice" I can give you, do not use EQ, compressor or any EFX directly on your guitar track, always use sends, even for just EQ unless it's a hp filer.

BTW I have carpet under the cabinet & more than 50% of the room I'm tracking in treated with 4" mineral wool. Your floor looks like marble? & I don't see much acoustic treatment going on if any. I can't see how low end could stay defined in those conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by nbarts:I can't see how low end could stay defined in those conditions.

Acoustic treatment, yes.Carpeting needed to define lowend? no.Most high end studios have hardwood floors where the amps / cabs reside during tracking? Every "A" room I've been to around here does at least.I saw Devin Townsend's guitar player running Diezel's, Marshall's and my MKIV thru a Diezel cab in the middle of the tracking room not that long ago.

I'm sorry, man, but I don't see any hardwood floor in his room. I've tried having the cab on tiled floor and it rings like a bitch. True, carpet doesn't help for low end, but that's not what I meant.

My bad then I guess. I thought you were inferring that hard surfaces in general, mess with the low end.

The floor is painted concrete. The ceiling is pretty much covered with 703, two of the corners have four panels of 2" 703, and the other two corners have angled Helmholtz resonators that cover 80% of two of the walls.

Well, if it's not the room, then it's one or more of what's left

I'm diggin this song and the mix is certainly not bad, but like every mix, has room for improvement. Here's my observations...

The guitar TONE fits the songs. The EQ doesn't. I, like the others, feel that the mid is just a bit too pronounced here. It is that which seems to be drowning out the vocals.
I think the vocals too need to be pulled up a bit and given some life. They sound a little dull or dead and I feel that for this song they need to be a bit crisper. Maybe try re-tracking them down the road with a new mic (I am not a fan of KSM44s...)
How you were complaining about the drum sounds...I find clear heads to be MUCH nicer for recording rather than coated heads. Maybe try some EC2 clears for your next project and see how they work. Your overheads sounded good, but for your stereo image problem, try using the "3 foot trick", or whatever length you find works.
I like the mix, but agree when said that the energy of the song comes from the sides and the center is lacking. Try panning your guitars 50% rather than what they are, and that will help to center the energy in this mix.
The low end was a bit muddy...rather than re-tracking everything (which I know you don't want to do) try playing around with your hi-pass filters.

Overall, I like the mix and this song is good! I think everyone will enjoy this EP! Keep up the good work!

Tough crowd, lol.

I like the tune and it sounds to me like you did a good job tracking.

It's difficult (for me, anyway) to comment much on a mix that's been mastered to -8dB RMS with a crest factor of about 2-3dB. If that's what you wanted in your master that's fine, the guy did a good job pushing it loud as hell and keeping things relatively clean. It also sounds to me like he might have widened the track a little as well.

I've found the 1073SE a little dicey on distorted elec gtrs myself (if that's what you used). Especially in that 3K range. I think the dist gtrs would have worked a little better with a wide cut from about 2.5-4K of where they are now.

All in all, it sounds pretty good though. I think the ME knows his stuff and did a good job too. Personally, it would be more enjoyable for me a little less slammed but I understand the desire to want to sound "current" too.

Good stuff, CR.

Steve

quote:

All in all, it sounds pretty good though. I think the ME knows his stuff and did a good job too. Personally, it would be more enjoyable for me a little less slammed but I understand the desire to want to sound "current" too.

I don't agree with this at all. -8db RMS level doesn't mean loudness at all. A good mix can sound louder at -12db FWIW. Years ago I used to slam things like -9db RMS too, my current -12db RMS mix sounds much louder.

Uh, you left out the part where I mentioned crest factor, nbarts. I'm open to learn something new if you want to share with me an easier and quick way to determine loudness outside of RMS/crest.

Obviously there are other components, like spectral balance. The human ear is much more sensitive to mids than lows, for example. So, not all energies are equal with respect to perceived loudness.

I believe you when you say you've had -12dB RMS levels that sound louder than -9dB RMS levels. I'm also quite sure there's a reasonable explanation for that particular case as well.

I wouldn't dismiss RMS values as not having any value at all, especially when used with other metrics.

Steve