These are three tracks that my friend and I have made together. My friend Howard does the music writing and playing of guitar plus a bit of singing and I do the recording and some singing plus a bit of creative suggestions. We both do drumming, but Howard seems to be getting a bigger share of the tunes. These three are all his drumming, LOL!

Basically I want your opinion on the recordings! Not so much on the music and performance (because I know I can't sing), but more on the recording. However a short comment on the music is welcome too!

These three tracks probably give the best range of our music.

'Genuine Problem' is more like the usual stuff we do. Hard rock/punk/weird. I am doing the singing.

'Another Bad Day' is a rap. I came up with the riff on the keyboard one day and we developed it into a tune. Howard raps first then me and then both of us.

Finally, 'Left Behind' is a love song! Me singing again and Howard on guitar.

Personal I think the rap and the rock all sound allot better when it is up loud!

Enjoy!

Regards,
~A Deluded Youth~

[This message was edited by Tenson on 10-08-03 at 02:33 PM.]

Sorry if uploading three tunes is taking liberty’s with the server!

Regards,
~A Deluded Youth~

AnotherBadDay.mp3 (4,956 Kb, 14 downloads) AnotherBadDay

Last one!

Regards,
~A Deluded Youth~

LeftBehind.mp3 (3,996 Kb, 14 downloads) Left Behind

I really liked the 2 I heard, the last one didn't upload right, it might of been bigger than 5 megs. I enjoyed the rap tune the most, but the chorus in the first one was very catchy. The bass sounds good in both tracks. The vocals are very different sounding. There was a bit of clipping in the vocal track of the first one, but it kinda sounded cool. With this style of music its hard to be to judge the production to much. I mean you could suck it dry and make it sound more pro, but I think that would take away a lot of the enjoyment. Good songs, good production for the songs.

-Dusty

I see the 3rd one now. I'll be sure to listen in a bit.

-Dusty

...without being mean - from a recording perspective you've got scratchpad demo sound quality. First off - this style of music needs to have a pumping mix with a strong backbeat. The mix has no impact at all - it's just kind of meandering....

You really should go back and revisit the arrangement and the way the tracks "sit" together. Then work on a more hip-hop/rap style of mixing.

Also - nothing says "amateur" quite like timing issues in performance....

Good effort as far as pre-production developemnt of the song -- now concentrate on capturing the song as a recording!


Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound

Blue Bear, could you give some tips on how to achieve a 'pumping mix with a strong backbeat'? Or a link to an example?

The timing issues are because on all the tunes we recorded the guitar first and the drums last. So the drums are playing to the timing of the git. In future this will not be the case. But I have to say it is a bit hard to come up with a beat that will go well with a tune if we don't have the tune there already!

Thanx for all your input so far!

Regards,
~A Deluded Youth~

genuine problem-
has a very early bowie feel.......but definitely a crude demo sound.....
the snare sound has a lot of kick, but not much snare.... almost sounds like a high pitched tom...
a very rudimentary style of playing..... kinda sex pistols/clash like.....
if the intent is to sound sloppy, then you achieved it... if you want it tight, rehearse it til it's tight!
the mix on the vocal could use some aggressive compression..... and it just distorts on the one screaming part...... the performance should be dubbed in there, or work the mic more consistently......
the idea for the song is good.
but it needs lots of work.

gonzo-x

I think I'm just to agreeable and see things for what they are and not could be. Reading your (Blue Bear Sound and gonzo-x's) comments make a lot of clear points. I didn't even notice the timing was off... UNTIL NOW!

Left Behind's level is too low, compared to other mp3's. It gets louder slowly, but never quite makes it. I like the fade in, but I think it should either go up further, or start louder.

The vocals are still fun on this song. Is that an authentic accent or are you trying to sound different? Both singers sound kind of similar, which makes me curious.

I also enjoy the song writing of all 3 songs. "Relax now, just chill". Thats how this music makes me feel, but not in a sterile, "I'm trying to make you relax and chill" sort of way.

-Dusty

All the tunes are normalised, but there are some nasty spikes from the kick and snare. I know I could have compressed them more but personally I feel it is better to have it quiet and keep the dynamics! After all can't you just turn it up? But I will try to do another mixdown with more compression on the kick and snare.

Hahaha.. yes it is a genuine accent! The left behind song is more my natural style of singing, but genuine problem is also how I would normally sing if it were rock. I just sing differently for different music. I am English so..my accent is English.

I forgot to say what equipment I used!

Vox mic - AT3035
Guitar - D.I'd with 'Trash' as a plugin
Drums - VSTi Wizoo 'Big Git Drum Kit'
Soundcard - Edirol DA24/96
Mixer - Soundcraft E8
Cubase SX
A small bedroom

Regards,
~A Deluded Youth~

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tenson:
Blue Bear, could you give some tips on how to achieve a 'pumping mix with a strong backbeat'?

---

What I was really talking about was arrangement and performance. A characteritisc of the Rap/Hip-Hop genre is a heavy beat along with thumping bass. The first step is laying that down as part of the arrangment. The second step is to draw out the punch at mixdown....

But you can't get it at mixdown if it isn't there during tracking!


Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound

Okay. For a start I would like to point out that I am the writter of the tunes in question and I preformed them to a large degree. I just wanted to stand in and take part of the rap (excuse the pun) for these songs.

I didn't have much to do with the recording side of things but I did with the playing.

For a start, I have worked in a studio in London, and considering the equipment Simon and I have to use I think that he did a great job of making it sound as proffessional as it did. The difference between the initial and final recordings was huge! The problem still remains though, that a mix is more a matter of opinion then a factual thing. I agree on listening that the snare sounds a little @$%#, but I think the kick and toms are all in fine.

Moving on to Blue bears (and others points) about the music. First of all, the timing is in for all the tracks except Another bad day, which is jammed on first take. Secondly, I don't think a driving bass line would suite ANY of these songs. We have more punk rock tunes on this CD that have driving beats and rythms, but these are not them, genuine problem included. These three songs Simon has chosen, are all ones that are designed more around tune and direction. The melody leads and the rythm is mearly a backdrop. I think a driving rythm in any of these songs would detract from the tune and make them a dull, droning tune. But yes, I agree that it can help, and is therefore employed on other songs.

Anywho, thank you all for taking the time to read what it is that I had to say. I hope that you all understand that these are only my views as the writter of the music.

And as I say, all music is opinions. There is no bad or good.

Adios for now

Just wondering, do you guys think having a decent outboard compressor might help the work? At the moment I just use the 'dynamics' section of Cubase SX. I think when I use the compression heavily it reduces the quality quite a bit so, could you recommend a good one for a relatively low price? My old college had a pair of DBX 166XL's but we never got the need to use them much.

Regards,
~A Deluded Youth~

This question has sprung up a zillion times in the last month. Everyones going to say "GET AN RNC DUDE." And I'll be the first. "GET AN RNC DUDE". Set you back about 200 USD's, I'll let you convert that to your money. Theres a bunch more, I like the aphex 509 and Alesis 3630 better for electric bass and guitar, but thats just me, most people STRONGLY disagree, so I'd say go with the RNC. Will it improve your mixes, probably not. That 200 bucks would probably be better spent mixing in the studio where Leprechaun works.

-Dusty

Well, I'm glad you have such a philosophical view on all of this, and that you're able to accept that not everyone likes everything, and that opinions are just that -- opinions.

Your stuff is very different, and certainly breaks a lot of the molds of convention. There's this guy who hangs out on the homerecording board -- goes by the name of hottsauce. Your stuff kind of reminds me of his, and I think there's a certain level of genius going on that maybe not a lot of people are ready to understand just yet.

That's not to say there isn't room for improvement of course, but I'm sure as time goes on your sound will evolve and refine.

www.moonunitsound.com

"Your mileage might vary, but only on the second and fourth Thursdays of every month in which there is a full moon on a Wednesday. And even then, only between the hours of 6-12pm."

I agree with moon unit. Bear and Moon are pro engineers. And they critiqued your mix (bear did atleast) on a pro level. I however am just dicking around with some mics in my bedroom. And I compared your mix to local bedroom mixes, and called the fuckups "style". I only listened one time, and I just was enjoying the tune, not focusing on the snare to see if it fit the mix and had enough reverb on it. Bear probably once, or maybe a couple times as well, and all the shortcummings really stuck out to him.

The songs got posted, and people critiqued them at the level they work at. I would feel good that bear told you how to make your mix sound pro. That atleast means there is hope.

Your shit reminds me of "The Streets", that dude supposevly did his entire record at home on his computer. And it sounds near pro. Your gear is good enough to do an extremly good job. The arrangements need hella work, and timing needs work, the vocals need lots of work, there are lots of problems with all 3 songs that have nothing to do with gear. Sometimes the drums detract from the song. I could go on for 20 minutes, and I'm sure bear could write a damn book about all that could be improved with these songs. It should not be an excuse that something was jammed on the first take. You should need an excuse for your laziness, not for the recording. I'm so definetly guilty for this one myself, which is an incredibly large part of why I'm at the low level like I am.

They are fun to listen to, but not near pro quality. What you should do is take from the critique the experienced ears gave you and run with it! Not complain about how your being misfairly judged.

Decide a target point of what you want to sound like. And achieve it! If this is it, I'm sure your friends, family and a few critiquers (myself included) will enjoy the songs. If your goal is higher (as it should be) you need to improve your writing, arranging and engineering. And then you will have extreme potential to make something out of all your talent and originality.

-Dusty

Hi! The leprechaun again. Firstly I would like to thank moon unit (or sunt like that) for the link. Very good!

Moving on to the points Dusty made. Firstly it is not a case of calling fuckups style and it is not a case of making a single take an excuse. A lot of bands find it useful to make first take recordings. It helps find your level and also gives a certain element of enjoyment to the listener similar to that you would recieve from listening to a live recording. Although I agree it is far from perfect, it has it's place. And it's not in a bin.

Secondly, I am interested in how there are points that sound like fuckups that we are making excuses for. I do not intend for there to be any as I'm sure Simon (Tenson) doesn't either. As we have obviously added something to the song that sounds wrong then it is always useful to hear that people can see something in the tune we are not.

Thirdly, it is very inconsiderate to prosume we only took a quick look at the work and said it was okay, if this is what you are trying to say. Like I had mentioned, all parties envolved worked long and hard on the music. The snare to us sounded fine. We liked it. It's only hearing that other people didn't like it that lets us understand how our tastes might differ from the norm over this matter. Because after all we can't see everything the way everyone else does straight off. That's why the clips were posted.

Finally I would like to address your point about how the arrangements need working. I don't know whether you write music, so you could be the next John Lennon or know nothing of it for all I know, but I can say that from a musical light, I can't see how they need changing. Genuine problem conforms to a standard pattern with a bridged verse on the end of the second verse. Which is also a known method, and an instrumental bridge. All standard. Left behind has the correct arrangement for a song that has a story in it. It is directional and yet doesn't change too fast or with too much impact. Finally with Another bad day, I can see this is an iffy-iffy case. But none-the-less the arrangement suits the style of the music, and doesn't really require much work. As it is after all, only an opinion.

I would like to end by saying that I agree with all that say the work could use improvements and fine tuning. This is true of a lot of work, and ours is deffinately no exception. But I think because someone is use to a higher level or recording or is better themselves, does not mean that they should prosume others to have that amount of equipment, money, or talent. I have very much appreciated the help provided so far, but would like to point out that this is our first proper recorded album (i.e. not cheapy mics and tape decks) and so we have put a HUGE amount of effort in. It is, like moon unit said, a case of evolving and refining the music over time with the sort of help we have recieved here.

Thank you!

quote:

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Originally posted by dusty:Bear and Moon are pro engineers.

---

Bear is a pro engineer.

I just do it as a side job for extra money. In a few years, who knows? Maybe by that time, I'll be qualified to shine his boots for him.



www.moonunitsound.com

I think I did come off a bit harsh on my last post, and I also think my comments were off base on a lot you were saying. Sorry about this!

I started writing the post one way, and it ended up coming out completly different. When I first started the post the only thought I wanted to get across was that there was plenty of room for improvement, and to not be so defensive. And then I felt the need to back it up with assumtions (that can't be spelled right) of what you meant.

On the arranging side I was more talking about instrumentation than song structure. I'd really like to hear more excitement, more dynamics, low points and strong points. This is your biggest weakness (and mine) in my opinion. The first 2 songs (not the love song) are equally exciting at all time, making them not exciting at all. People hear, and enjoy the contrast of great music. In studying songs that I love they all do this. This attribute of poor arrangment shows up worse live, the bands that write songs that don't go anywhere (however good the band and songs may be), they don't get any crowd support. Then I see bands that write horrible songs, with extremly piss-poor verses and HUGE choruses win over the crowd. At the next show you go to notice how the headliner is 3 times better in this aspect than the other bands. The other bands might have great lyrics, and great melodies, but this excitement is necessary if people are going to buy their cd and learn their lyrics and melodies to enjoy. Dynamics in the arrangments are instantly gratifying to the listeners however! The love song is very different, but I still think it starts off too quiet and grows to slow. But I see how this could really be artistic taste.

Tea time... later.

-Dusty

Hi guys!

I really don’t want to have a heated debate over weather the music is good or not. As this would be pointless.

I really appreciate the points made by Dusty about the contrast and dynamics of the music (in the writing sense, not dynamics of a waveform sense.) Hopefully this can be bared in mind when writing more music! I know I agree with it because I think some of the best bits of the songs are when it will go all quiet and have lots of atmosphere and stuff then switch back into loud and heavy.

Most of you have said that you can hear 'fuckups' or small things that could be improved. I'm by no means saying there are not, but it would be VERY helpful if you could be specific in what the problems are. Especially if it is something that could be fixed in the mixdown/editing as we have done so much on them now it isn’t that great to have to go back and do performing again If you have done soOo much work on a tune as we have, it is very hard to just sit back and hear it as a pair of fresh ears would!

LOL! I have been re-reading the posts Moon Unit

quote:

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I think there's a certain level of genius going on that maybe not a lot of people are ready to understand just yet.

---

- Maybe not genius, but deffinatly madness!

Regards,
~A Deluded Youth~

[This message was edited by Tenson on 10-10-03 at 07:53 PM.]