http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/c4.html



I thought since so many people are wanting info on these mics, I'd post here as I go.

This is an initial, cursory glance at the C4.


I received a pair of SP C4 mics for review today. I called over to Sea Note Recording and asked them if they'd like to be some of the first people in the world to check out these mics. Everyone was up for it.

Initally the shockmounts seemed like a good design and even [ surprisingly ] lifted out of the case easily. The problem came when mounting the C4's on their shockmounts. The way the shockmounts are built, the C4 body just kind of rests in there. There's no "grab" and the mics could have easily fallen out. I did what we often do with review mics, and wrapped a little toilet paper around the C4's and that was enough to hold them firmly in the shockmount. I don't know if we weren't using the shockmounts correctly. I'll check with PMI about the shockmounts.

First of all, just checking the mics - there's every feature you could possibly want on a mic: -10 dB pad and high-pass filter at, I believe, 75Hz and 90Hz. [ Don't quote me on that ]. And TWO capsules - interchangeable: cardioid and omni. These mics were essentially designed online in Designer's Corner with a bunch of end users. Alan Hyatt started a thread and everyone posted what they wanted to see in a small condenser mic.

The build quality appears to be very good, and the mics are heavier than I thought they'd be.

We put up a few pairs of mics:

Studio Projects C4 w/ Cardioid Caps
Schoeps CMC6 Amp w/ MK4 Cardioid Caps
AKG 451B
Røde NT5

We set the mics up in an X-Y array about 18" out from the soundhole of a Larrivee DV05 acoustic guitar. We tracked through a Millennia HV-3D mic preamp. The HV-3 is so clean, you can eat off it. It's one of the most highly-rated and most-used preamps in the world. We tracked to RADAR at 44.1K.

All the mics were cardioid, no roll-off or high-pass filter.

Anway, the Schoeps - which normally sound great using one of them right at the 12th fret about 1' out - they sounded muddy and were picking up too much low-end.

The 451's sounded very good, pretty bright and fairly transparent.

The NT5 sounded hollow and scooped in the wrong places.

The C4's sounded very good. Quite colored - as if we were running them through API pres with 2520 opamps - or a Urei 1178 limiter.

We didn't come to any big conclusions other than the 451's might cut through better on acoustic when tracked with a mix.

At this point I'm intrigued by the C4's. Everyone in the quick session really liked them - we're just not sure how that sound would stand up in a mix.

Off course, this is only the beginning of a long series of tests and sessions these C4 will go through. We didn't try the omni caps, or the roll-off or the high-pass filter yet.

The C4's are looking to be very good mics, but the jury is still out on the best applications and also mic placement.

Part of my theory is at this point if you have something like a Grace or Sytek mic pre and are looking for more "color" - rather than investing in another mic pre, you could use the C4's.

The C4's sound almost valve-like, or like the color you'd get running through transformers. Maybe even a little like you're recording to analog tape. There's some kind of old-school thing going on with these mics.

Also, I constantly see people posting about needing something to "warm up" their sound. Well, digital audio media does not sound "cold" on its own, in fact what gives a cold sound is shitty analog circuitry via cheap DAW pres and bad A/D converters. [ garbage in, garbage out ].

It could very be that using the C4's would at least add some needed "jizz" and presence to the tracks.

The C4's passed with flying colors while listening through all the frequencies. There was no major "hype" or "scoops".

We'll also be using the C4's along with about 30 other pairs of small condensers in upcoming sessions for The Listening Sessions.

That's all for now. More later...

Thank you Dan, I will look into the mounts. Somehow, you are not the first to say this. So, we will look into it and report back what we find and why this has happened.

I am pleased you like the C4's. Yes, it was designed off of that initial thread we did. So, all the uses who contributed, including you, basically got what they wanted...however we did not expect to have a mount problem, but we will be all over it.

Thanks again to all who helped us with their opinions to get this mic built..

Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
Joemeek Studio Projects Toft Audio Stephen Paul Microphones
23775 Madison Street
Torrance, CA 90505
toll free: 877-563-6335
e-mail: [email protected]

Alan, it's funny about some of these shockmounts. The ones that come with the $2000-per-pair Schoeps don't even fit their mics. : )

I'm sure you guys will look into it and straighten it out.

Ya' know, the AKG 451B's come in a stereo set with clips - which I think are just fine.

Oh, I didn't mention price on the C4's. The pair of C4's with 2 omni and 2 cardioid capsules, plus shockmount, windscreen and hardshell case lists for $599 - and currently has a street price of around $369.

There's a listing for them here at Mac Midi Music . I talked with the owner at Mac Midi today, Warren White, and he said he has the C4's in stock that just came in.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

Well I got my pair of C4's last night.

I had read the comment above about the shockmounts, so that was an area that I wanted to look at right away. I do see what the reviewer meant by the mics "just resting in there", but I disagree about the statement of, "There's no "grab" and the mics could have easily fallen out." The clip IS simply a friction fit around the shaft of the mic and there are no O-ring grooves or retaining edges on the mic, but it would take some fairly heavy-duty shaking and throwing around to slide the mic out of the mount. I'm not concerned about them falling after playing with them for a night.

I used them for drum overheads (the use I bought them for) last night with the cardiod capsules and as I brought them up in the mix I was pleased. I didn't want to spend a ton on overhead mics that are going to be used for live rigs and risk them being accidentally tipped over or thrown around by uncaring roadcrews. So as cost effective option to needing some small-dia condensers like SM81's, KM184's, or AT4041's, I was looking at 603's, 012's, NT5's, and the new C4's. I decided to take a leap with the C4's.

They were capturing modern bright cymbals (UFIP Class series and Zildjian A Customs), they sounded well blended and I didn't have to eq much at all on the high end to get the sound I was looking for. Of course personal tastes will determine "what sound you want to hear" but I was happy running the high-end eq fairly flat on the pair. I obtained a nice kit sound as well and with varying positions I was happy to just add some kick and I could have gotten away with a three-mic setup and decent drum sound. Of course once I brought in all the toms and snare mics (Beta98D/S's) it was one of the best overall kit sounds I've had. A good deal of this was from the C4's I believe.

In comparison I had been using a Rode NT4 (shares the same NT5 capsules), and it did seem that I had to add more eq to acheive the sound to my liking in the past.

The thing I don't like is the fact that you can't use the rolloff function AND the 10dB pad at the same time. Why not?!? How difficult would that have been to make that possible? And my other nit-pick is that the threads on the shockmounts for the mic stand are plastic, not metal. Those type of plastic threads have the potential to be easily cross-threaded if you're not careful when screwing them on. But overall, the versatility of having omni and cardiod patterns available for different uses, shockmounts, and rolloff and pad switches makes the C4 a nice set for very usable mics.

I'd like to get some free time to try these in other applications in the studio and see how they stack up on acoustic guitar. So for now, that's my initial impressions of the new C4 using them as live drum overheads.

I will be selling my NT4 soon.

Yeah, the C4 is a very nice mic for the money. Nice warm sound.

A little update on the C4's: Another studio nearby, The Lazy I, that's involved in testing for Digital Pro Sound has had the C4's for a couple of weeks. Engineer Brian MacKenzie - who also plays guitar on several sessions of The Listening Sessions - has been recording with them. So far, he loves them and was asking me about getting a pair for him. Brian has a lot of mics at his studio - and has access to over 100 mics that we have here for The Listening Sessions. He's not easily pleased and he really digs the C4's. He says that the C4's don't have that harshness that some other small condensers have on drum OH's.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

That is quite good to hear, Mr. Dan Richards. I always like to get feedback from the hard to please/access to big mic collections crowd.
Today, just up the coast from Dan and Brian, I will be recording some percussion in Culver City, using a couple pairs of C4's and an LSD2. There are four players using congas, djembe, talking drum, dumbeck and something called a brequitae? No idea how to spell that. It was described to me as being a 20" approx. kick drum looking thing with a string across the back skin and it's played with a stick. Does that ring a bell anyone?...Bueller?
Anyway, looking forward to further recording with our newest additions to the line and with the drummers, who perform and tour with some major acts, but still jump at the chance to get together on a little kickback session such as this.
Gotta run

Brent Casey
Studio Projects Microphones
877-563-6335

Brent Casey
Studio Projects Microphones
877-563-6335

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Hyatt:
Thank you Dan, I will look into the mounts. Somehow, you are not the first to say this. So, we will look into it and report back what we find and why this has happened.

I am pleased you like the C4's. Yes, it was designed off of that initial thread we did. So, all the uses who contributed, including you, basically got what they wanted...however we did not expect to have a mount problem, but we will be all over it.

Thanks again to all who helped us with their opinions to get this mic built..

Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
Joemeek Studio Projects Toft Audio Stephen Paul Microphones
23775 Madison Street
Torrance, CA 90505
toll free: 877-563-6335
e-mail: [email protected]

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Alan ... have you guys done anything with the shockmounts yet ?

just curious

[/QUOTE]
Alan ... have you guys done anything with the shockmounts yet ?
just curious[/QUOTE]

Yes. The new C4 shockmounts are currently available and are shipping.

Brent Casey

Brent Casey
Studio Projects Microphones
877-563-6335

Some of this is probably redundant, but I just posted something over at homerec.com and wanted to toss it in here.

quote:

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The C4 SDC's are not "accurate" and they're actually quite colored. More colored than the B series. They are, after all, "C Series" mics. All the C's are fairly colored.

The C4's sound quite good, but are less "real" sounding than the B1 or B3 - which are fairly neutral. Out of all these SP mics, if you're going for something that's as close as possible to the actual sound of whatever instrument you're playing – the B1 and B3 are your best bet, IMO.

BTW, the B1 and B3 are absolute monster mics on toms and also make great OH mics.

The C4's are more forgiving and I think one of the big pluses for the way they're tweaked is that if you're recording in a room that is acoustically less than stellar, the C4's can help smooth out the edges. And in that way, the C4 could also be termed a warm and colored-sounding mic – which also works well to tame some of the harsh transients coming off of cymbals.

Just like some people like the AKG 451 on acoustic, but feel it's too bright for drum OH's – I feel that C4 is excellent for drum OH's and may or may not - according to your taste – work as well on acoustic. Though you can certainly use it on acoustic, and the color and character of the C4 might actually help "glue" the acoustic track nicely in the mix.

Another plus of the C4's is if you have a fairly clean mic pre, like the DMP3, Grace or Sytek - the C4's offer an inexpensive solution for adding some color into the chain.

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Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

dan,

it's good to see you have a similar thought about the c4 on drum overheads versus acoustic guitar as we did (after getting on the floor and wrestling quite a bit).

btw, here's the link to warren's review:

www.mojopie.com/c4.html

--Steve, publisher of Mojo Pie
www.piemusic.com

quote:

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Originally posted by ozraves:
dan,

it's good to see you have a similar thought about the c4 on drum overheads versus acoustic guitar as we did (after getting on the floor and wrestling quite a bit)

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It was a tie match.....ha ha

I had some decent results using x/y cardioids a couple weeks ago with another player, but they're still "less than stellar" in my opinion on acoustic.

Of course, mix down techniques could come into play if you're using the Dolby A301's or some other hype high end tricks. Then the C4's might come across a little better in the mix.

Warren

Some Tuneage I recorded for a friend (me on drums / piano).
My Piano Stuff (fun screw around stuff)IUMA Page

Today's stars are tomorrow's meteor fragments.

Submitted for your consideration - a short clip featuring the C4's on acoustic guitar. IMO, they work fine for acoustic guitar. But, you be the judge. The clip is here.

Very nice. What's the rest of the recording chain?

Tom

Thanks for the info, Dan, et al.

As a satisfied owner of an SP C1 LDC mic, I'm interested in checking out a pair of C4's. The above info is very helpful. I would probably be using them mostly for drum OH.

Dan, have you come to any more conclusions about the C4's? Have you tried miking any speakers with it?

Dan-

I've seen Alan's take on this comparison over at homerec, and I'd like yours. I've got a pair of 012's that I "selected" (I felt a little sorry for the kid at GC before we were said and done...we tested 17 different 012's!), and I'm pretty happy with them. That being said, there's always room in the locker for another set of SDC's, especially given the fact that I record a LOT of piano and acoustic guitar.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dot:
Some of this is probably redundant, but I just posted something over at homerec.com and wanted to toss it in here...

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Which came forth as a result of my ignorance!

OTOH, sometimes the best way to get good information on a subject is to first post something about it that is blatantly wrong.

I know there's not a lot of people with experience with the Gefell M300's but just in case (Cough!, Dan, Cough!) how do the C4 and the M300 compare. The M300 is the only SD mic I have spent quite a bit of time with. I've toyed around with some others but I always came back to my M300's for lack of anything better. I eventually sold them because they never really did light my fire. They were just solid mics that didn't get in the way but consequently didn't stand out either.

Anyway, if anyone has A/B them let me know.

Jason A.

quote:

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Originally posted by T Payton:
Very nice. What's the rest of the recording chain?

Tom

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Thanks Tom -

The mics were run through a Focusrite ISA 428 (the Pre Pack), then into a Roland VS1880. I spent a fair amount of time with mic placement so as not to use any compression or EQ on the initial tracks, though I did put a little verb on each track and panned the effect hard left and right. Used a touch of EQ and multiband compression in the Roland's mastering toolkit. The track lost a fair amount of sheen and spaciousness after it got dithered to 16-bit for CD - gotta work on that.

I'm satisfied with the results but, as always, am striving to do better. Interesting that others think the C4's are better for drum OH's than acoustic guitar. My experience with them thus far has been just the opposite. The few times I've used the C4's for OH's the results were less than stellar, however, I attribute this mostly to my relative inexperience with placing drum OH's. It's clearly an area I need more practice with.

Sweet guitar playing Skeetch, assuming that's you. I'm guessing that's a nylon string, right? I likes, I likes!