hi all,

i found this forum and I think it's great...

well, where should I start?

I'm a electronic music producer and I'm let's say an amateur in mastering. I have read a lot of stuff about proper mixing and I think my mix is always very good but I have always had problems with right level. I have T-Racks (limiter, compresor etc.) but it wasn't much of a help. How do you get right level and when do you know it's right? Is the only way to buy external componets such as limiter or compressor? A lot of questions, but I would be more than happy to get some answers.

I'm using Ableton live for arrangment and Cubase SX3 for mastering. Also I have Adam A7 monitorg and RME Fireface 400 sound card.

thnx in advance!

no one?

"Right level" as definied by who? I usually try to get my stuff as close to clipping (0db) as possible without going over. Perhaps my thinking is wrong on this, but it always sounds good to me.

Using a compressor or limiter will help even out the dynamics so that you can ride close to that line more of the time. Why isn't T-racks working for you?

First, I have to give a sentence about how much "loudness" in music (past where the mix "asks" to be) just sucks.

That said - The loudness potential of the mix is dictated by the mix. That's the easy part - It's the part where creatively and carefully manipulating the dynamics can *decrease* the dynamic range, but make the mix seem *more* powerful and dynamic.

After that point (that point "usually" being somewhere between -17 and -15dB(FS)RMS on the average rock/pop recording), you're doing damage - plain and simple - you're making the recording sound worse for the sake of volume (sorry, two sentences). How much damage and how well you control the damage is the next question.

And as usual, the mix will tell you what you can and can't get away with.

me, i'm just a hack.



but, i can tell, from listening, that when i start pushing the makeup gain into the limiter, you get to a point where, yes, you get volume, but yes, it sounds like caca.

sometimes, you have to just forget the volume issue, and trust your ears, and hope you're close.

me, i'm just guessing.

guys that do it for a living, already have got it down.

thnx guys. I wouldn't agree with you WalkerGibson, sometimes I go above 0db as long as it sounds ok. I think you cannot increase your level as wanted with limiter only. When I finish limiting with Tracks, I put the level little above 0db, maybe wrong, but for me the only way. By the way, I saw a dozen well mastered tracks little above 0. Anyway, I agree with John about mixing. What you make in your mix, is what you get in the end. And by the way I am planning to buy some hardware like Limiter or Compressor (maybe TC?)... Can anyone recommend something, and what are the prices?

digital overs, will add up to a grainy sound in the end.

plus, if you want to master with compression or eq, and you're already at the ceiling, and you want to boost, where do you have to go?

you're right but here is what I do... (not sure if it's ok, but it's ok for me )

I export my mixdown from Cubase on -6db
I add TRacks in wavelab and in the final use gain above 0 (2-3db) and I thnik right now the best way for my budget. You are definitly right about destroying the signal, but if my ears tell me it's ok, then it's ok. I also like to hear my tracks in car, small computer speakers, club etc.. and then I know for sure if it's ok

John, some of your past post on levels have helped me greatly. I have pulled my mixes down to peaking at -12. Are you saying my average levels should be at -17 to -15. If so I probably need to come down a little more. How much would the average difference between peak and rms levels uaually be. Im sure it would depend on the music. Most of mine is country or country Gospel. You have been a great help to me so far

I was referring to RMS levels on that -- If you're peaking around -12dBFS on any given mix, you're probably running around -30dB(FS)RMS. Plenty of headroom, even a little room to bring it up a bit (but no particular reason to do so if you don't feel the need).

What I was getting at is those nasty "final" levels of a project (And keep in mind that I'm just throwing numbers around here - Just "generally speaking" for the most part) -- If a decent mix has a crest of 18-20dB ("crest" being the space between the peaks and the average level), then you might be able to reduce that by 3 or 4 dB (crest of 15 or 14dB) during whatever processing is happening during the mastering phase before you're just making it sound worse instead of better). After that, it's just volume gluttony -- Which nearly every single commercial release in the last decade is guilty of.

I personally always keep my final limiter set at -0.1dB, just to be on the safe side. Although there is no magic RMS value that is the "right level" in every case, I would like to share my personal wisdom on mastering compression. In the event your client does want their mix to be completely squashed, I have always found it sounds far more pleasant to use several (in some cases a dozen or more) compressors which each do only a small tailored amount of dynamic control, rather than try and use a single compressor. Even the best compressor plug ins in the world can only do so much at a time, and so if more compression is called for, it is generally time to start loading up multiple instances of my favorite.