Hi all!

Do any of you have thoughts on how to mix for the best possible result after mastering?

Reading this sentence it looks quite daft really, I don’t know if I can express myself clearly. I’m norwegian...

What I’ve discovered more and more lately, is that when I slap some kind of 2buss treatment on, the mix changes a lot. Especially in the low mids. They tend to get a little bit muddy after this. When I compensate for this perceived boost in the mids by cutting on individual tracks everything sounds a lot better. And FAR better than cutting the mids on the 2buss.

Would this be a good solution with professional mastering as well?

I think I’ve gotten pretty good results by using a lot of HPFs on the individual tracks, and that seems to be talked a lot about. I have’nt heard so much about cutting mids that will later be "brought forward" in mastering tho’

Sosa

This is really John Scrip's (mastering forum) territory.

Your english seems good to me.

I think it depends on the compresser. Some compressors/most compressors really darken things up... especially bass and drums. So I generally add more mids than I'll need.

But every compressor is different!

I always do a sharp high pass at 30hz before entering any compressor to avoid bringing up rumble, and compressors don't handle those frequencies well.

If you are using a DAW I suggest you use the mastering chain on the 2 bus before you mix down... I have an 'copy' of Wavelab that I wouldn't use if I paid for it... I just put my mastering effects on the 2bus and and mix down when I'm done. That way you only mix down once and you can compensate for the effects while mixing!!!!

This is really helpful for things like if the added compression makes your reverb too loud you can easily turn it down!

I really don't see any befinet of actually mastering a stereo mixdown if you are mastering it yourself, in the same room with the same monitors as you mixed it on... Definetly make an unmastered backup in case you want to get it professionally mastered in the future though!

-Dusty

dammit Dusty that was quick!!

Thanks for responding!

I’m aware of the shortcomings of my "mastering", and I do check with a limiter on the 2buss.

The reason I’m doing it in two separate operations is to "master" [there is that word again...] the whole project in context. Some tunes need to be louder than others depending on the previous tune etc. I don’t really do too many single songs. BTW recording is not my main gig, I’m primarily a bass player, songwriter, arranger type guy. I do record a few projects a year though, childrens records some TV stuff and the like...

Sosa

Are you going to master it yourself?

unlike Dusty, I do see a benefit in seperating the process...but, it's always good to strap a WavesL2 on the 2 buss just to see how limiting may change your perception of the mix.

The real point of mastering is to even out the levels of an album project (and dither it, etc), IMO. That can't be done on the 2 bus at mix time. If your mix HAS to have a 2 bus compressor-fine, but that's far removed from mastering.

Agreed on the purpose of mastering.

I’m talking about mixing in general. Whether I would have it mastered or not. Is this cutting in order to have it sound clear after compression something you all do?

It sounds unnatural and thin without compression...

Sosa

Ok, so do you master each of your songs seperately before posting or do you just put effects on the 2bus, Pop?

I understand if you are making an album... I don't see any befinet at all with just one song.

Why not master when you mix, save the presets for the plugs on the mix bus, disable the effects on the 2 bus, print the mix, and then re-add the effects to each song (stereo mixdowns) making minor changes so the levels are right.

-Dusty

Just to offer some food for thought:

I'd reconsider whether it's necessary to compress the 2 bus at all - or do anything to it other than adjust the level in comparison with the other tracks.

Are you doing it because you assume that's "what's done" or because you actually think the track needs it?

My gut feeling is that if you're finding it necessary to adjust the tracks to "prepare" for the 2 bus compression, you'd probably be better off avoiding the 2 bus compression altogether (or leaving it for the ME).

My personal feeling is that home-recorded music everywhere would take a huge leap forward in quality if the L2 were to suddenly vanish from the face of the earth, but that's just me...

Chris

sosa, try cutting a little at 350Hz, just seems to get rid of the mud. and I usually high pass at 40-50 Hz.

With one UAD-1 I'm tapped out resource wise, after applying the various plug to each track/group. I could process a few effects, but that's a pain if you change your mind. I usually keep the Vintage Warmer on the 2 buss to A/B, then to "mastering."

Wavelab's best IMO, process then drag it into the montage...viola

-Stixxs

Well, Dusty, I currently can't put effects on the 2 bus, so...

As to what I do...I spend a few minute in T-Racks getting a little polish and level on there...keeping the raw mix for posterity and compilation mastering. Actually, the Tao Jones thing I did, I quite literally pulled it into Wavelab, put a slight, slow leveling with the T-Racks compressor (few DB gain reduction)...and it was done. Mastering for me is like mixing in that I can get you 90% there really quickly. Beyond that it can take a lot of time, and I'm bound to lose perspective.

You're way works fine. Just save a copy without the two bus stuff and don't EVER turn it on until you're done otherwise. Frankly, it's so easy to think you're close by just crushing the thing...and where's the fun in that?

I agree with Bandini about the L2. Loud...lacking dimension....but, a moron can set it. I mentioned it, because it gives essentially a one knob "loudless" adjustment that lets you quickly adjust to your destination "volume" for reference. I've given up on actually using it to print.

I'll be honest, though...I've always liked a leveler on the 2. Heck, in the analog days, I would sometimes get an Aphex exciter on there, too. Neither making some drastic effect like todays squashed stuff, but a gentle squeeze to kinda glue everything. I used to be so paranoid about it because it was "wrong", that I'd print the mix to DAT, then set the compressors and print a second one. Many years gone by--I've never preferred the ones without master processing.

quote:

You're way works fine. Just save a copy without the two bus stuff and don't EVER turn it on until you're done otherwise. Frankly, it's so easy to think you're close by just crushing the thing...and where's the fun in that?

I keep the Kj(I have to look up the spelling every time!) Peak Pressor on the 2 bus to crank up during breaks... but I keep it disabled when working...

I know what you mean though! I should really force myself to leave it off! It makes everything so much prettier though. Pushing the enable/disable button seems connected to my facial expression.

-Dusty

bandini, Amen brother!
Preach on,,,,,,Preach on

Boy, I bet a thread like this gives John Scrip agita!

mud

The only thing that ever goes on my 2 bus is a Manley Vari-Mu drawing about 2 dB of compression. I do however often check my mixes with a hard limiter (such as L1) to give me an idea of what mastering will do. I NEVER do mastering style processing while mixing because if its an album I want to be able to tie the tracks together and if its a single track I want to be able to get in a different head space, but that said I almost never master my own stuff.

Cleaning up the low end by cutting low and low mids is very good mixing practice any way.

bandini:

As I said earlier recording or mixing is not my main gig, so I may well be lacking in knowledge here, but I need to get the levels up to a decent level. There is hardly ever budget for somebody mastering the kind of work I do. How on earth do you get loudness without some kind of limiting? I’m not talking stupid loud here, just decent...

Sosa

John Scrps offers a "one pass" mastering service that's pretty reasonable. Check out his site. If you absolutely have to do it yourself, then I've done 2 things:

1. Use the Limiting and EQ on my Masterlink after a quick pass through a Pro VLA.

2. Post a note on the CD that says "Turn the freaking knob up on your stereo!"

quote:

How on earth do you get loudness without some kind of limiting? I’m not talking stupid loud here, just decent...

Analog mixer.

Channel compression.

with a slight 2 bus squeeze.

Or dumping to an analog deck...even to an external digital deck with forgiving converters...

Go pick up the first Counting Crows CD. Good example of a fine recording that slipped in right before everything started gett squashed to hell. You just can't compare to things like the new Michelle Branch...not without serious limiting. But, who cares? WHile she's a greatly talented girl, those things are annoyingly distorted. The tracks done with John Leventhal are far better--even though the mastering engineer crushed those, too.

Post a little clip.

quote:

Originally posted by sosa:
bandini:
How on earth do you get loudness without some kind of limiting?
Sosa

I guess I gotta admit, I'm not at all concerned with "loudness".

I mean, I've found that if I do a reasonably decent job tracking and mixing, the resulting volume of the mix will be more than adaquate, and in many cases louder than a lot of stuff from the 70s and 80s.

I don't know what kind of music you're doing though - if it's heavy rock stuff, or some of the nu-metal bubblegum-ish kinda stuff, you're probably wanting a more squashed sound.

Which was really my main point to begin with: do what you do because it *sounds* good to you.

If you're just doing it to try to compete with the volume level of the majors, you're going down a dark road - and you're now officially part of the problem.

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by bandini:
My personal feeling is that home-recorded music everywhere would take a huge leap forward in quality if the L2 were to suddenly vanish from the face of the earth, but that's just me...

It's not just you...

The freaky thing about "sheer volume" (at least in my experience) is that people are shooting for it at the wrong time 90% of the time.

Of the mixes that come in here requesting "rip your face off" volume, the ones that normally actually attain it are the ones that came in very dynamic and rather quiet. They're the ones who weren't "hoarding bits" from the start. On top of that, with some engineers, there's such an investment into making sure the mix is "loud" that they forget the "good sound" part - or at least compromise the sound for the sake of volume.

Whereas if they concentrated on getting the overall sound in the pocket from the start, the mixes would probably have a much greater *potential* volume during the mastering stage.

Okay, I'm done.

I've moved this topic over to the Mastering Forum. The topic still shows in the Recording Forum, but I've made a wormhole shortcut that will take you to this topic in the Mastering Forum. Carry on, ladies.

Can you explain what hording the bits means, John.

Cool wormhole feature, Dot.

-Dusty