Hey, I am fairly new to recording. I have a question regarding the mixing/mastering process. Do you compress and eq during mixing or during mastering. I am planning on having my band's album professionally mastered and i read on numerous mastering sites that they compress and eq your music, so would I have to worry about compressing and eq'ing at all myself during mixing or no? Thanks a lot!

The short story is to do whatever it takes to get the mix sounding the way you want it.

THAT SAID:

It's VERY rare that a situation comes up during mixing that calls for EQ, excessive compression or any limiting on the main buss. I say "excessive" compression, meaning compression for the sake of volume. I mix into a buss compressor more often than not - I never add one at the end, and I never compress for the purpose of making the mix "louder" by any stretch. Heck, I don't even use any make-up gain most of the time. It's 24-bit audio. There's no real advantage to it unless the gain is part of the flavor.

Notice that's all about main buss treatment - Of course, you're going to want to EQ and compress whatever the mix is asking for while mixing...

Ok, so if the song called for say compressing the vocal and snare drum, one would compress it themselves and not leave it to the mastering company to decide? Would it be better for the masterer to decide since he has more elaborate compression systems? Since I am new at engineering I may not know exactly what is best for each instrument regarding compression, so say if I just sent a mix with no compression, would the mastering company fine tune my mix with compression and EQ if they heard a problem? I'm just trying to find out whether compression and EQ are something I will have to fumble with in my mix or if I can leave it to the mastering. Once again, thanks a lot!

Once the mix is rendered, the mastering guy can't do any of that - Compressing or EQ'ing individual elements. That's all part of mixing.

Mastering deals with creating a cohesive production master from a collection of mixes that will translate well to the broadest collection of playback possibilities - Generally while changing those mixes as little as possible.

Hi John and everyone here.

I've spent some fair amount of time searching for the appropriate topic I could post my message to - and I think I can continue here:

I've been mixing and "mastering" (you know what I mean) for a couple of years now. I'm not a professional but I mix from time to time - only because I love it. There's one thing I'm still trying to "solve" - how can you mix your recordings without (or with only little) buss compression?

I'd love to get my mixes mastered by a professional - but everywhere I look a mastering engineer will tell you that you should avoid using buss compression and limiting. OK - I understand that if I compress and limit too much then a mastering engineer has only limited or even NO space for his work.

But this is what I don't understand:
when you mix without a buss compression you aim to get some balance of instrument levels (and of course sound colours). Then you give it to the mastering engineer and he can make the recording sound
better and louder ("the louder the better" phenomenon is a silly thing but you have to do louder recordings otherwise you're out). But what happens to the balance you were trying so hard to get? When you compress then some instruments (usually the heavy guitars and also reverbs and delays) get louder and there's certain point at which the recordig gets completely different "feel" than before mastering. It's no secret that nowadays you have to "squash" your mix during a mastering process by several decibels... I must export my mixes without my "master buss chain" at -7 to -12dB so that they do not clip at all.

My question is: how do you set the instruments' levels when you don't know how much compression will be added during mastering... Do you have to "predict" or what?

Why mastering engineers "forbid" using buss compression yet guys like Andy Wallace claim they DO use master buss compression up to -6dB of gain? http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_andy_wallace/
(And I don't wonder he uses that. I tried it without it but I think it's impossible!)

John, would you master Wallace's mix?

How would anyone master such "hot" mixes? Andy (and I believe he's not the only one in the world) mixes through a buss compressor - and what now? What about adding only a little touch on your EQ and reduce only 1-2dB on a mastering compressor? Wouldn't it be much better thay way? Do they do it like this with hot mixes?

Some people say: "When your mix sounds good it doesn't need too much mastering"
I'd spend hours and hours fine tuning the sound of guitars and getting the right balance of levels and then you send it for mastering and you get a whole lot different recording...?
I know that boosting 3.5kHz by +0.6dB can make a big difference in the overall sound...

How much time do you spend with the recording as a mixing engineer and as a mastering engineer? As a mixer I always get to know the recording through and through - why is it so important to have it getting mastered by someone else? Is it only because they have much better equipment and room?

I'd love to send my next work for mastering but I don't know how to prepare my mixes. I can't mix without a buss compression - and now I know that the best mixers in the world don't use it either...
I sent 1 of my songs for mastering and although I had been mixing it to a master compressor I sent it without a buss FX (as they required it). The result disappointed me: not only they didn't reach the same volume level I did (OK I wouldn't mind if it were only this fault) but also the sound was pumping and distorting and I didn't like it at all... I'd say it was poorly set-up compressor. OK, maybe they weren't the best mastering studio in the world (but they claim to be te "best" in our country and have a lot of not-so-cheap outboard gear )

There's one band I know that send their mixes to a well-known studio for mastering - and their reaction was that the sound got definitely better but the level balance changed a lot - they have much more guitars in the mix now and they told me that the current level was a bit more than they wanted - but how do you know it during mixdown?

Sorry for this very looong post.
I hope I didn't annoy you with this topic and I really appreciate any reactions.
Thanks.
Nodnas

quote:

how can you mix your recordings without (or with only little) buss compression?

I mix with buss compression almost all the time. A dB or two of gain reduction can be exactly what the doctor ordered. But if it means anything, I mix into it. I don't add it later. And I never add anything for the sake of volume (that will shoot the mastering engineer in the foot).

quote:

But what happens to the balance you were trying so hard to get? When you compress then some instruments (usually the heavy guitars and also reverbs and delays) get louder and there's certain point at which the recordig gets completely different "feel" than before mastering.

There's one big problem with the "loudness war" in a nut shell. And a lot of what the mastering engineer's current problems are, is trying to limit (no pun) that change - Controlling the damage. Whereas, it used to be about making it sound good.

quote:

It's no secret that nowadays you have to "squash" your mix during a mastering process by several decibels... I must export my mixes without my "master buss chain" at -7 to -12dB so that they do not clip at all.

I wouldn't be concerned with the 2-buss during mixing so much. You can't be making sonic judgments that are going to affect only one mix that early in the game. Mixing for volume is the quickest way to make sure you won't ever get it (volume). Headroom, headroom, headroom. Every track, every stage, every aux, group, buss, etc.

quote:

My question is: how do you set the instruments' levels when you don't know how much compression will be added during mastering... Do you have to "predict" or what?

I'm not above slamming a mix into a limiter to see what it's going to do. Sometimes it will reveal issues in the mix that aren't as noticeable without it. You might find that certain tracks have a dynamic range that's too wide (OR too narrow) to fit the mix properly.

But before the mixes go out, the limiter comes off. Sure, I want to know (just like anybody else) that the mixes I get back are going to resemble the mixes I sent off.

quote:

Why mastering engineers "forbid" using buss compression yet guys like Andy Wallace claim they DO use master buss compression up to -6dB of gain?

I'm all about buss compression - within reason. 6dB though... Nothing against Andy, but if I have a mix that needs 6dB of GR to glue it together, I'm going to examine what the mix is lacking - why does it need 6dB of GR to sit. That's a huge, huge amount of compression. But it really does depend on the mix... If a mix has a HUGE crest (35-50dB) I can actually see having that sort of reduction here and there (HERE AND THERE) to level it out. Again, I'd want to see if I'd be better served by browsing the mix.

quote:

How would anyone master such "hot" mixes?

Mastering "hot" mixes is a complete nightmare. If it needs "correction" it's very difficult to do it. Nothing is steady when there was 6dB of limiting... Noise, which can be relatively easy to deal with in a reasonably steady-state, is nearly impossible to tackle. EQ corrections, again, not a big deal if the target isn't moving all around -- Very difficult when the overall EQ of the mix changes with every squashed transient.

Just yesterday, I sent off a compilation project. You could tell the experienced acts from the inexperienced... The "rookies" were falling all over each other trying to have the loudest cut on the record. The more "seasoned" acts sent in mixes with plenty of headroom (evidently at every stage of production) and there were a few in the middle -- One particular track that stood out as sounding very nice, but with excessive buss compression that made the level jump around dramatically - Although there was no limiting on the buss.

Anyway, no surprise, the mixes that came in at "normal" levels (around -24 to -20dBRMS, with a wide crest) are easily - EASILY - the loudest, clearest, punchiest, best-sounding tracks on the disc. The ones that came in "really hot" are so much thinner and "squishy" sounding (as they were when they arrived). They're still squishy, as you can't correct that. I tried to EQ them to be "less irritating" to some extent, but there's only so much you can do.

quote:

How much time do you spend with the recording as a mixing engineer and as a mastering engineer? As a mixer I always get to know the recording through and through - why is it so important to have it getting mastered by someone else? Is it only because they have much better equipment and room?

When I'm mixing, I can spend hours and hours on a mix. Mastering (not the same mixes, of course), if I don't have a good idea of what the mix needs inside of 20 or 30 seconds, I'm not going to get one. Goofy corrections aside (noises, pops, clicks, etc., etc.), there needs to be a clear direction at that first listen. Objectivity is only objectivity once.

quote:

I'd love to send my next work for mastering but I don't know how to prepare my mixes. I can't mix without a buss compression - and now I know that the best mixers in the world don't use it either...
I sent 1 of my songs for mastering and although I had been mixing it to a master compressor I sent it without a buss FX (as they required it). The result disappointed me: not only they didn't reach the same volume level I did (OK I wouldn't mind if it were only this fault) but also the sound was pumping and distorting and I didn't like it at all... I'd say it was poorly set-up compressor. OK, maybe they weren't the best mastering studio in the world (but they claim to be te "best" in our country and have a lot of not-so-cheap outboard gear)

Best in the country... Helluva claim.

But "setting up" for the mastering session is really nothing... Keep a decent amount of headroom - everywhere. Do nothing to change the "natural" volume of the mix (unless for effect, of course) and do nothing to block the natural peaks. Other than that, do anything the mix requires. Buss compression or not.

quote:

There's one band I know that send their mixes to a well-known studio for mastering - and their reaction was that the sound got definitely better but the level balance changed a lot - they have much more guitars in the mix now and they told me that the current level was a bit more than they wanted - but how do you know it during mixdown?

As mentioned earlier, that's where smacking a limiter occasionally during mixdown might come in handy. It can reveal a lot of personality... There's a saying -- Something about "pressure reveals a man's character" or something like that. The same can be said for most mixes. And the fact that almost every mix is going to have it's "character revealed" at some point, it's not a bad idea to find out that character as early as possible.

Nodnas,
Your post makes a lot sense to me. I always mix with buss compressor, but more for the character I get out of it, rather than compression. I don't use ratio higher than 2:1 & not much gain reduction either, however GR may vary if the mix has wide dynamic range. Since I've worked in digital from the beginning I have the bad habit to have a limiter on top of the track too. However when I bypass the limiter the outcome has a lot of headroom. It's really about your peak levels compared to RMS levels, you can only compress to some level, if it already is compressed that much there is nothing you can do. If the mix is "burnt" at some frequency nothing can undo it. Mixes with limiter applied shouldn't be sent for mastering at all, that's like asking to fry an omelet that already has been made. One thing that I've come to realize is that if I need the mix to be more compressed I prefer adding buss compression, this way I get to keep the basic form of the wave, instead of slicing it with limiter, maybe a wrong approach, but who cares, it sounds better.

I HAD TO master a few projects recently (digital), I usually don't do this & I know exactly what John is talking about mastering engineer needing headroom. There is just a little you can do to a hot mix. I think as a mixing engineer you should let mastering engineers do whatever they do (assuming that's a good engineer) & let go. When you mix you get hung up on things that negatively affect the greater picture, you pay too much attention to details that don't matter. As for how to know how much to compress the mix I don't think there is answer to that question. We are generation of self-learners that learned it the "wrong" way, but you know what, there is no one way to do something.