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Mod Sandan  |
OK my heading is a bit hyped and I moved Popmann's comment to a new discussion.....
quote: This is insanely true. I get asked a lot by songwriters what gear they should buy and I tell them a 4 track cassette or an old ADAT with a Mackie 1202 and what ever you do, do not get a DAW. I am obviously a terrible businessman because I have a business that makes money from teaching musicians how to make better recordings at home but I have seen home studio wreck a lot of peoples careers. For the most part if you are a performing songwriter that puts a fancy studio in your home, if that does not stop your career dead in its tracks you are the exception and not the rule. I used to see it in artists all the time and then it dawned on me, that I can trace the end of my career as a performing songwriter to exactly the time I started building my home studio back in the late 80s. Granted I have been lucky and traded it for a cool career as a producer/engineer and I am honestly much better at that then being a performer, but it sure as hell ended things for me. I never toured as an artist again after I put together my first studio. (I am actually going be touring again this spring!) I see this over and over again: If you meet two performing songwriters who were both talented and hard working and one had a 4 track cassette and the other was starting to put together a DAW based studio. Fast forward one year and ask what they have been up to in the last year. 4 track guy: "I wrote a whole bunch of new songs and ran into a cool artist at a jam that ended up putting one of my songs on her major label release. I did a couple tours and last spring I went into the studio for a couple weeks with a cool producer and we cut an album which has been getting some airplay around the country. Its been getting spun a lot on some stations in the southwest so I am about to do another tour there to support it." New DAW guy: "I have been getting the studio together and trying to save up to buy some better A/D converters. My band has been working in the studio bunch and we have written and recorded basics for almost 7 songs. We should have the album done some time next year. Yeah it would be cool to tour but we are waiting until we get the record done. And we will need a new drummer. The old one got bored of not gigging and split but I have almost got my acid loops to synch up with with some of the old tracks............." I am not saying that DAW guys life is bad, but the hard reality is that the overwhelming majority of the time getting into home recording ends the careers of performing songwriters. The big reason for this is two fold: 1) All the time and financial resources go into the studio. So instead of spending money to fund a tour or pay for promotion or buy live gear or fix the van, the money gets dumped into plug ins. Also instead of spending time writing songs, rehearsing the band and gigging and touring, they are sitting at home trying to figure out how to get their new MOTU interface to talk to Logic Audio etc, or spending weeks editing tambourine tracks... 2) Home recordist tend to isolate themselves and sit in their home studios playing with gear instead of getting out into the real world and stumbling into opportunity by playing more gigs or jamming with different people. The majority of great opportunities in this biz come from chance meetings than from some one hearing a home recorded masterpiece. I am sure almost everyone on this board could show me an exception to the rule, but they are still exceptions and for people that are just into home recording for the joy of recording and do not have ambitions as performing artist than none of this really matters. But if you look at it this way: if you had to take a gamble on two artist to have a good career. One spent a year getting a studio together and recording, the other went into a medium sized studio for 2 weeks with a cool producer and spent the other 50 weeks of the year promoting the album, which one do you think would be a safer bet? Obviously all of us on this board love recording, its the only reason spend time "chatting" about all this and tons of us are just as happy to be having fun recording than trying advance our 'artist" careers, but ending careers is a hidden cost of home recording for a lot of people. |
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Yondan |
quote: Oddly, I haven't completed a new song in, well, since I got serious about the home studio. But, "I'm not dead yet!"  If only I knew 1/10th. |
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Yondan |
Very true....perhaps they are not "killing music" as such though, because they do allow many people to 'get into making music' as well as access to a lot of music.
Perhaps they are killing the magic that comes with people getting together and feeding off each other's talents, and playing out to feed off an audience's energy. I know that I used to get far more done with a tascam 4 track back when I had my band. But I was more heavily into the band then too. Perhaps one of the golden rules is to try and get someone new into your home studio at least 4 times a year. Wether to record, jam or experiment. Tube - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "the leaves, they fall....and you know you're never gonna sweep 'em all" Tim Rogers-You Am I |
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Mod Kyudan  |
quote: HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!  --------------------------- Dan Richards The Listening Sessions --------------------------- Pro Audio Consulting (866) 409-3686 |
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Yondan |
Good topic.
 I'd say that if you really have the drive, determination, talent and insanity it takes to become a successful performing songwriter, you're probably not likely to get too far into the whole "recording yourself" thing - and if you do, you're not likely to let it deter you from your real goal. But lots of people who love music eventually find that they're just as happy, if not happier behind the board than on the stage. I don't really see this as "killing" anything. It's more like "birthing" something. I guess a simpler way to put it is: if you find that owning a DAW kills you as a performing songwriter, you were clearly not meant to be a performing songwriter, and wouldn't have made it anyway. Chris |
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Kyudan |
I do want to point out that I was paraphrasing something I read a few years back. I wish I could tell you what producer/engineer said it.
It stuck with me, because I'd never really thought about it. Now, before I moved from a 4 trk, I actually decided I wanted to make music in a way that required either I find a major to fund me and cross my fingers, become independently wealthy, or put together a little studio that I could use to make that music. I chose to put together the little studio. I achieved my dream (mostly) only to realize there were things ill concieved about the fundamental concept. What I've built is effectively a playground that allows me to explore musical ideas that a 4 track wouldn't (alone). You what's funny is that I actually knew the "future me" and lots of them growing up working in a little studio...I was always 99% about the music and considered the knob twisting (no disrespect meant) to be an afterthought..."just don't fuck up what I'm doing" was my big requirement. It was of myself as an engineer, too...thus I kept getting the jobs. Maybe it's not such a little requirement after all, but... I knew guys that would talk to me about bit rates and mic rentals and going to such room to cut the drums and taking the tapes to my garage and..." AND I stopped listening. Snooze. Did you guys write any new tunes or what?  Now, I am that guy, damn it. But, can you go back...and do I dare? This is the question. On a side note...while a lot of people here and other boards didn't share my enthusiasm for the new wave of keyboard workstations...I think adding an 8 track recorder right into the sequencer/sampler/synth is brilliant. Particularly the Alesis that adds a HD. If only Roland had implemented it via HD on FantomX. I think it's a smashing idea. With 128 note polyphony and sampling and 8 tracks of audio...all on a keyboard stand? Add a little mic/pre, headphones, and some kind of CD burner, and go to town. That just screams getting stuff done to me. With the calibur of the synths now? Great song writer demo machine. What else do you need? |
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3rd kyu |
quote: I'm not quite following the logic here.... If you have a nice DAW setup at home that should inspire you write and work on material.. plus you can easily transport your sessions back and forth for collaboration purposes... I never really spent a whole lot of time writing until I got a DAW that sounded a million times better than some shitty cassette player or ADAT... you can get a laptop and an MBox and write songs round the clock...it takes about a half an hour to setup, at most...that's a DAW, right? I think the problem is people go to Banjo Mart and buy the wrong gear for what they need and spend months trying to get it to work... |
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Mod Sandan |
quote: I of course was having fun with the topic title to get people thinking. quote: Man this is so true. Its one of the things I try and talk people into in my classes. Getting people to come into your studio is so valuable. You make better professional releationships, people bring fresh ideas and perspective to the work, and they can bring in a lot of knowledge to, like telling you a cool trick they learned from another engineer. It always amazes me how often bringing in a guest musician to the studio can transform a piece of music for the better. |
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Kyudan |
quote: Umm...maybe this is the obvious question, but...why on earth did you buy a DAW if you'd never spent much time writing? |
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6th kyu |
Very good post Ronan! It made me think twice about what I want to get out of life.
I've always tried to keep things simple though. And I've always followed the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle. Even though I'm a very technical person with a huge interest in computers and technology (been programming since I was 5) my main goal has always been to make thing simpler and easier to use. You should be able to get your work done instantly, not have to fiddle around with a thousand things before you can get started. A few years back I saw that there really wasn't any good recording software that followed the KISS principle and I decided to make my own. And anyone who knows anything about programming know that such things takes a VERY long time to make. Especially if you are alone with the project. But after one year of hard development I realized that I had stopped working on music alltogether. I hadn't played guitar for months. I thought that once I get the software finished I will continue making music. But my ideas about the project kept coming and the project grew larger and larger. One year later I still had not written one single song. All of the energy I had went into the development of the tool that I was going to use for song writing. Isn't that ironic? Well about that time I went into a deep depression along with several other mental issues, and I had to quit working, I moved back to my parents house as an attempt to recover. That was a horrible time for me as I realized that I had been wasting so much time with things that I didn't really want to do. Well sure, I thought I had great ideas about this software that would benefit a lot of people, but was I willing to work for several years just to get there? No, not really. What had been my dream since I was a little kid? Working with music, jamming with people, writing songs. So now I've ditched my whole project and started working with music again and it feels so much better. Even though I regret not having done it earlier I'm so thankful that I woke up before it was too late. Even though I've just turned 26 I'm still young enough not to be laughed at for wanting to live out my dream and work with music full time. Sure I might not succeed, but at least I tried. So now I decided not to waste so much time with technical issues anymore. I still think that the computer is a wonderful tool for songwriting. It's so much easier to use than a portastudio and you can be much more creative with it as long as you ignore the advanced stuff. I use Mackie Tracktion now for songwriting. It's a wonderful sketchbook. It's the closest thing to the software I was making (still very different). But it follows the KISS principle. It's easier to use than a portastudio and it has the basic benefits of DAW software. Some people loose all inspiration working with computers though. They need their little physical box with sliders and knobs, perhaps a tiny little LCD screen. And I completely understand that. But there is a simple alternative on the DAW side too. My recommendation for a simple songwriting DAW would be the following: One computer, mackie tracktion, a simple interface with 2-8 inputs 1-2 mic preamps and MIDI I/O, one mic, one midi-keyboard, one guitar, one bass, a vox tonelab (easiest modeller there is), some sample cds. And STICK WITH THAT. It's a very simple setup that doesn't get all that technical, yet lets you do pretty much anything. There's really no need to invest in more gear. Just remember to KISS. |
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Yondan |
quote: I know several people right now who were just instrument-players before they got a DAW. Once they had the gear in their house, they started trying things they wouldn't have before: writing, singing, learning new instruments. I must confess, I have a hard time relating to the problem that a lot of people seem to have with the whole gear lust interrupting their writing/playing. Having all this in my home has spurred my creativity like mad. Like: I can really stretch out with the kinds of songs I write now, because I have the tools to make them come alive. When you're just sitting there with an acoustic guitar and a 4 track, you tend to write acoustic guitar songs - cause that's all you're capable of recording. Now, I never have to wonder: what would this song sound like with drums, a Hammond B3 and 5 tracks of harmonies? Thanks to Groove Agent, NI's B4 and my multitrack software, I can just do it! And so I write it. Chris |
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The Different Shichidan  |
This is a great paradigm for many of us, but did you see who one the Grammy for soundtrack of the year? Garden State... Which features 2 songs done by "The Shins", and the Shins music actually plays a part in the movie.
All done by one guy at home with some cheap DAW setup. I think getting picky over sonics can really hurt productivity... But there are definetly home studioist out there not following this very true stereotype... Me not being one of them. -Dusty |
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Yondan |
Isn't it more that home recording only really stunts those of us who get real anal about stuff.
 I mean, I can get lost looking for the next step up in sound, while the next guy is happy as hell creating new ideas with the 4 track! The only home recorders who get lost are the one's who were closet engineers in the 1st place.I recorded a band last summer. The stuff was good, but it sounded like everybody else. Then I run across a cheap tape of one of the guys. I love it! Major LoFi, noisy, hissy sloppy, damn creative stuff. So, screw the stuff I worked on, I sent the tape to Massive Mastering! I'm still convinced that my music is better for all the anal recording fever. I just saved the world from some of the crap I would have spewed out and I have another outlet for something I really enjoy. If only I knew 1/10th. |
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Studio 52 Nidan  |
quote: I'm not sure I understand that logic..... are recording studios exclusive to song writers? Joel God Bless America -------------------------------------- "I'm not gonna have nothing to do with none of that!" Shortyprs |
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6th kyu |
How is it possible, that you know me so well ???
Absolutely me: Was creative with 4 track cassette, lost it all as soon as the Atari Falcon arrived. Didn`t stop there... Spending all my time thinking bout what to buy next to improve the sound... It`s such a shame, If I wouldn`t do some comercial composing/recording I probably would spend all my time surfing/reading/buying... |
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Shodan |
Well, it so depends what you're going for. The simple fact is, learning to record well is a shitload of work, usually grossly underestimated. It's a whole different skill which has little, if any, relationship to writing, playing and performing. It's no wonder it stops so many in their tracks.
It was a huge speedbump for me, and the more I learn, the more I want to know, and the more I realize there is still to learn. It's a balancing act, because, for me, it's not my vocation or full time job anymore - even if it's personally very important. I'm at a happy place right now - so long as I avoid the temptation to keep going after the next piece of gear. I only buy high quality gear now, and don't have tons of it. I don't do my own mastering. In fact, I'm thinking of having some of my stuff professionally mixed. This is a tough one, and could be costly, but if I can find someone who would tolerate me sitting in during mixing, it might accelerate the learning curve. I slave forever on my mixes, and they're OK, but still haven't mastered, for example, all the subtle uses of delay, mixed reverbs, comp "tricks" etc. The reason I say all that is to illustrate that I sometimes still need to spend so much time improving the engineering/production side of things, that yes, it cuts in big time on my time to write. And if performing was a major part of the equation, well... agreed. If recording is just a way to capture and work on ideas and do some very rough demos, that's one thing. If your holy grail is to produce something on your own that plays well next to commercial recordings, well - does the work ever end? |
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1st kyu |
Larry,
I agree with you...mostly. It really all depends on your goals. Even with all the great gear within the reach of a fairly modest project studio, it's still all about: 1)The performance (we spoke about this the other night) 2)The chops of the engineer/producer Neither of those come in a box, so were SOL! However, letting-go is a real important skill here too I think. Songwriters need to balance-out priorities. Is it more important to get that song down as well as you can...or just keep pounding your head against a wall about things that will come in time anyway. Of course, if someone is trying to do a studio-for-hire thing and they don't have the skills...they're kinda putting the wagon before the horse anyway. -john songramp.com/havlicek |
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Sandan |
Great thread!
My experience over the past year has been: Phase 1.) Jumped back into writing, started getting 2 to 3 songs done per month for about 4 months. Phase 2.) Bought the 1680 and things slowed way down. I'm still writing, but nowhere near as much as I was. Phase 3.) I've listened back to initial "test" tracks I did, and I swear they sound fine. My new philosophy: get the damn song down. Yes, you can screw around with sounds and engineering, but not for long...just get the damn thing recorded. We'll see how it goes. And if I want to really learn how to record (really) well, then I'd better go to recording camp! ...sounds like a blast to me...in fact, I like the idea of mostly working on writing, and then everyone once and awhile jump into some intensive "in-training" of sorts. (All the while trying to keep GAS at bay!) |
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Godan |
i'm with Bandini on this one..
though, i'm a bit different. i didn't buy a DAW, per se, with the intention of putting together a "home studio"... i bought a simple machine, a roland vs-1880. i never had any dillusions of grandeur, that i'd put out the next dark side of the moon with a little all in one box. so, i'm not really competing in the studio market, so i'm no threat to putting small studios out of business. on the other hand, without my home studio, such that it is, i'd never realize the compositions and arrangments that i'm able to come up with. i have 18 tracks.... i use every single one of them, and still want for more. just to put together my little demos. you can't do that, on a 4 track or 8 track. i'm not a one chord, simple melody kind of guy, i need tracks.. i need tracks to layer things together, and i love the simpleness of the machine.... now, people putting together powerful computer setups, and don't have the killer rooms to go with it, yeah, what's the point of that.... but you know why they do it, it's all they can afford. i can see how "songwriters" can benefit from the knowledge and experience of putting together tracks and building up arrangements.... i sure do. for that, they (daws) are completely worth it. it's like everything else, it's not the tools, it's what you can do with it. not everybody loses focus so easily. it's really just a matter of committment and working ethic. just because you go into a pro studio, even with a "real" producer, it doesn't mean you can squeeze blood from a turnip. just turn on the radio, to prove my point. there is so much tripe on the commercial airwaves right now, what good did taking that music to a professional studio do, when the song writing is crap. maybe, they should have spent more time working out their arrangements, harmonies, and ideas, on a home multi-track, before going in and wasting thousands of dollars in an excellent room, with excellent gear..... hm. for me, it's simple. it's about money. i don't have any. i work my ass off, and put the hours in, and still can only make so much, and there's none left over for renting studio time. i could never realize my dream, of a professionally recorded album, because of never having the bucks to do it right. so, i make do with what i've got. I understand what you're saying chris, and that probably applies to 75% of the folks that come through here. but if it weren't for my pure enjoyment of the process, and enjoyment of learning about recording in general, i'd never come into these BBS's, as i imagine, most wouldn't, and then there would be no forum for discussing these things, or using them for advertising.  "plastic and duct tape." -U.S. Fire Administrator David Paulison |
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Yondan |
Just last week I put a sign, using the largest and biuggest font I could that says ,"IT'S THE MUSIC STUPID". This was meant to remind myself not to get side tracked into the techical oblivion with the process of recording. My purpose as an engineer is very similar to my purpose as a musician - and my purpose as a musician is still my basic overall life goal. This purpose is to create MUSIC.
I've never been technically minded except when it came to playing guitar. My first order of the day always has been and must remain practicing my guitar. For me it all begins there. I write music on the guitar, primarily. I make my living, primarily, as a guitarist. I've had my career as a guitarist. I always used to wonder about guiatrists I'd see at shows, music stores or students who'd get so caught up in the technicality of GEAR. I'd always think, "Man you just have to practice. Play more!" Guys would waste so much time dicking around with gear. Well it has happened to me as well. Not to the same extent because I still gig and I still try to get in my 1-2 hours of practice every day. The forums have been more of a drain on my creative resources than engineering frankly. Dealing with being creative is a lot. Creating can be tough, especially the demands we often put on ourselves (and our own expectations). It's easy to divert our attention to other things and fool ourselves into thinking we're doing this to be more creative. But it's not the gear and it's not the intention to be at cause over our creativity. I think it's the diversions. The computer in general is a fantastic diversion. I stopped writing on the computer years ago. At least I stopped using a sequencer to write. About 10 years ago I looked at when I was writing prolifically and how I was doing it. I was writing with pencil annd paper. Then I went to my 4 track or straight to the band. So now I either write with pencil and paper or I use a notation program. Not a DAW. I don't get diverted into the technology. And when I do put a piece together I don't allow myself to get diverted into spending a lot of time looking for sounds. I don't spend a huge amount of time placing mics or changing mics or compressors. It's a drain on the artist (or me if I'm the artist) and becomes a huge diversion away from the music. So I've had this as a new test. When I buy something new there's a new learning curve. I bought Ableton Live, Kompact, Reason and a new (for me)Guitar controller GI-20. Talk about a learning curve and diversion. I resent the hell out of it. It's about the music. So I allow a certain amount of time each day to dick with it. Years ago I stopped buying new gear for this very reason. Diversions. IT'S THE MUSIC STUPID All the best, Henry Robinett |
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