When thinking about adding a mic pre / channel strip to your studio... I say... Go low, or go high, but stay out of the middle.

Many of these "high end" mic pres aren't as expensive as you might think. Buying single-channel units is by far the most expensive way to do it – because you're paying for the power supply every time. Once you get past the cost of the power supply and start adding on more channels – things start to look a little different.

API 512C is around $650 dollars per channel
Millennia HV-3D @ $3500 for 8 channels is around $437 per channel
Sebatron vmp-4000e @ $1600 for 4 channels is $400 per channel
Focusrite ISA428 @ $1600 for 4 channels is $400 per channel

Those price-per-channel costs are less than a lot of mid-level pres and channel strips and offer much better performance. People mention the "$1000 barrier" to get into a high-end pre – but that doesn't have to mean $1000 per channel. It just means getting over that hump of buying the power supply and the frame.

In a lot of cases I think the real waste of money is all these mid-level $500 - $700 pres and channel strips. With perhaps the exception of the Grace 101, none of the mid-level units offers much over the good inexpensive units like the M-Audio DMP3, Rane MS 1b, VTB1... and the mid-level units also can't touch the performance of the higher-end units. So what good are they for besides adding a few more neato lights in your studio? And frankly, even with the Grace 101 running around $550 – for another $300 you could get into the 4-channel Sytek MPX-4Aii. So even the 101 doesn't escape the "it's not really worth it when you take a good hard look" test.

I've talked to so many people who have 3-5 or more of these mid-level units. And they keep buying them looking for this "sound" that eludes them. Seems like $500 is sort of an easier target range for people to shell out for a piece of gear. In quite a few cases I've convinced them to sell off their mid-level pres and channel strips and get into a couple of high-end channels. And in every case they've called back or emailed about how gassed they are at the performance difference.

The RNP for 2 channels at $475 is totally acceptable. The Tampa @ $328 is a great deal. The Brick @ $399 is borderline - and it's still delivering mid-level performance, and will give you that nice "whooly" undefined sound if you use it on a lot of tracks.

The RNP, Tampa and 101 all get away with costing much less because of the wallwart power supply – meaning they didn't have to pay the $20K+ for UL approval for an internal power supply. So it's a way to pass on the savings to the end user with a unit that costs less. Fair enough.

And the one interesting thing the RNP has over most of the other units in its price range is that it truly is a "boutique" mic preamp. And it's the "boutique" companies that are turning out the best stuff. If you're looking for a place to invest your hard-earned cash – look into smaller companies that are making their units by hand. One of the very cool things about the internet and pro audio is that it's allowed a lot of small companies to flourish. There's lots of examples of great little companies who never would have had the kind of marketing and advertising budget to even get off the ground who are now well-known because of their name and word about their products getting around on the internet in the various forums. Great River, A Designs, Phoenix Audio, FMR Audio...the list goes on...

If you're a hobbiest and want a couple of channels... running a DMP3 [ $150ish ] through an RNC [ $179ish ] can give great results. Wanna do some vocals and acoustic guitar...the Rane MS 1b [ $150ish ] is outstanding for that. Wanna play with some different colors and versatility... get the VTB1 [ $129ish ]. The Tampa – when you can find it for around $328 – is the only mid-level channel strip I recommend. And the RNP @ $475 and The Brick isn't a total ripoff @ $399. But then there's this loooooong gap... all the way until you hit around $700+ where you can get into the Sebatron vmp1000e. But even at that – why not get the 2-channel Sebatron vmp-2000e for just $300ish more - which is right at about $1000 - and, again, we're at that "magic" number where you start really being able to get into some performance.

If you're a hobbiest and just getting started, don't worry about it. Get one of the inexpensive pres I've recommended here and rock out. They'll do a great job and won't hinder you from making excellent recordings. But if and when you wanna get a little more serious...hang on to your $ – and bypass the mid-level range – and wait until you can crack that $1000 barrier – and from there some serious options open up... A Designs, Hardy, Great River, API...

Once you've got some chops under your belt, there's nothing better than some serious tools. And, yeah, the serious options are worth it.

My 2¢.

Dan,

I agree...but with the bazillion or so choices on the market, things can get confusing very fast...

I don't know if protocol allows for it, but perhaps you could offer a list (strictly based on your personal opinions, of course, and not subject to a lot of discussion) of what mid priced pres should be avoided....

I'm assuming from what you said above that the Sytek is an exception to this rule. Am I right?

I totally agree. That's why I invested in Millennnia. It's worth it to save money and buy what sounds great and you can resell if need be. Otherwise you're throwing money away.

Hey Dot, what do you rhink about TL Audio? I almost bought one one eBaY last week, the "dual pentode" one, but let it go.....it looked like it was going to close real low, but didnt. I still want the Sebatron I think.

quote:

Originally posted by Dot:
In a lot of cases I think the real waste of money is all these mid-level $500 - $700 pres and channel strips.

So have you changed your mind about the Summit Audio 2BA-221? I think it's a noticeable step up from the DMP3 and Studio Projects stuff. I just recorded an album primarily with my RNP and 2BA-221, and the tracks mixed so much easier than when I was using a Focusrite Penta, DMP3, and Joe Meek. They just stacked really nicely.

Also, what about the Safe Sound P1? Have you used that piece yet, Dot? From what I hear it's an excellent value, if not for the pre (which I've heard is good but vanilla) than for the compressor. Supposedly the compressor and peak limiter are just unbelievably transparent.

You know I read these comments about mic pres, and channel strips, and sometimes it makes me smile. The price that some of the old Neve's, API,s and Trident pres and channel strips go for these days is astonishing, considering many of them weren't all that great back then. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the old Neves, but they were far from sonically great. First they were powered with a single 24 volt rail, which meant they had a max output of about 8.5 volts and a constant 12 volts DC on the output that had to be blocked with either a cap, or a transformer. Not what you would call state of the art by any means, even for that time frame. I have heard some really chaep mic pres that were amazingly good. You want a great mic pre? Go to Jensen transformer's we site and download one of the mic pre circuits and build it up. It will cost you about $80 in parts and will blow away most everything you can buy ready built. Price point has little to do with how something sounds. How it is made, mfg processes, raw goods, labor costs and overhead are what drives price. A mic pre made in China might cost $100 and rival those handbuilt designer jobs costing thousands of dollars. It is a matter of math. If you have an EIN of -126 db or so, and flat frequency response from 20-20kHz, coupled with a slew rate high enough to be non audible, it is very hard to distinguish the difference in units when it gets to that level. Then we are talking about which one has the feature set you desire, or possibly the chrome on the package that catches your eye. A great mic pre is one well engineered to have no color at all. If you want "color", get the flattest most neutral mic-pre you can find, and choose your mic to give the color desired. If your trying to add color with a pre, your chasing your tail.

quote:

Originally posted by Ben Harris:
A great mic pre is one well engineered to have no color at all. If you want "color", get the flattest most neutral mic-pre you can find, and choose your mic to give the color desired. If your trying to add color with a pre, your chasing your tail.

This has always been my point of view. I have a Sebatron right here. I don't use it too much. It's nice. Don't get me wrong. But it's very colorful. This means I'll pull it out when what I have is in need of something else not being provided by the musician or his instrument. But when I listen to what's being played I'm not hearing the characteristics the Sebatron is giving me. It's giving me something different, which in some cases is desirable, most cases for me, not.

I much prefer getting as realistic a pre as possible and color from somewhere else, like the compressor or mic. The pre is just powering the mic after all. Why do you want to screw that up?

Neves for me are similar. I'd use them for a specific guitar or bass tone normally. But that's just me. They don't serve as the basic pre for my overall vibe. If everything has the same color (using the same pre) then where is the color?

Hey, guys...don't you know you're not supposed to argue with DOT about pres? It was in the agreement when you signed up. Joking...

I'm really on the fence here...I mean, I do get the point...but, where to draw that line? Also, with all the 4-8 channel units, you're assuming people are cutting real drums, which isn't the norm in a project studio. And, other than the Sebatron you mentioned, there's rarely a price break on 2 channel units. Having 4 channels of API would cost the same as the UA Great River I have now. Would I be better off? Two channels would be rotting 98% of the time. But, they don't even make a two channel unit...and still no tube.

There is no doubt, the GR sounds nicer in general than the Akai preamps. But, I can't do without the tube. So, where's the two channel SS preamp to pair with a tube? Nice of Sebatron to give you a break on two, but I can't think of many times I'd want two tube channels in my studio. Might as well spend the couple hundred bucks just to have it, but...

You've got two Grace101s at $1100. Two Tampas at $700. Then you're up to the Millenia and Hardys, no? $1600+. I'm not sure how you're defining MOR preamps. There really aren't many choices between $150/ch and $900/ch(in two channel configs).

Personally, I think THAT is the problem. There are people really happy at DPSworld with a Tampa, a ProChannel, and the Akai pres. That's your relatively low end solution. Couple of cool favors to add to the general purpose stock pres. Rock and roll.

If the money's in the power supply, a ME2NV wouldn't be twice the price of an ME1NV. I don't know about the Tampa, but the ART Pro line uses no wall warts. There's no extra R&D in two channels. So that leaves material cost and assembly. If assembly was the diference, cerrtainly Alan Hyatt and Co would outsorce the assembly to China, and we'd have sub $1k two channel Neve knockoffs, no? They don't...so I assume it's materials.

Be interesting for Dan Kennedy to drop by and comment...hint, hint...

It seems to me, the market is ripe for the picking. I can't be the only one who thinks so.

BTW...Henry, if you want to send me the Sebatron, I'll put it to good regular use.

I will never record an electric guitar through a SS preamp again.

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:

I will never record an electric guitar through a SS preamp again.

I will.

-Dusty

Just a thought: until a few years ago, there was no mid grade preamp market...just low end and hi end...

Just like with mics...but some of the 'mid-grade' mics are now being chosen over the eltra high end stuff for more and more varying applications...

Perhaps the mid level pres just haven't caught up to the same quality/price break that mics have....perhaps given enough time, a $500 channel strip will not only be competitive, but be preferred over the $2500 ultra high end version.

Or not...I don't know...but having bought some lower end stuff because some reviewer said it was really close to a (fill in the blank hi end) just to find out it was close, but only at the veneer level, was an expensive and disappointing lesson.

I still think Dot's original idea is correct...for now...but no one can dispute that advancements are being made every day that narrow the gap between hi end and mid grade pres...the technology just needs to mature a bit more (for the most part)...

I would just like to say that this is probably the most useful discussion I've come across since I've been a member of this forum (or any other forum). Being in the market for a preamp, Dot's well-said comments really made a lot of sense to me.

At the same time, Ben Harris, Henryrobinett and Popmann made great points. In fact, up to now, I truly thought that what you WANTED when recording was the purest signal you could find (or afford). At that point you could add the color by other means. This would allow you to change your mind and still have a good, strong, clean signal and not be "stuck" with "color" or "warmth" or "buttery goodness". The suggestion of a colored mic to take care of that aspect made good sense...however, having just purchased what is considered to be a more neutral mic, Im still looking at pre's. What have I found? That NO pre is good for everything. That EVERYONE seems to have a different pre for every instrument. That one man's trash is another man's treasure. I've been recording for several years using the pre's on a Mackie board (which was a HUGE step up from the cassette 4-track of my 80's and 90's). Then there's the old saying, "To Tube or not to Tube, that is the question. To be honest, this has been a very confusing couple of months as I have been trying to upgrade. But, with forums like this one, it does give one a decent source of information. And what I like best about this particular forum, is the lack of "flaming" that I have sadly found in such abundance on some of the others..so kudos to all the members here.

So where does that leave me? Well, it looks like I'll be giving Dot a call for some more info as my head doesn't hurt enough from all this overload!

(maybe we should all sell our stuff and go back to the good ole Foxtex X-80 4-trackers!)

Let's see if I can't stir the waters a bit.

First off, the cost of parts in a single channel preamp is over $200. There is no way that sending it offshore is going to change the end sale price, nor am I willing to hand off the responsibility for the product quality to somebody who's name ain't Kennedy.

I can put cheaper input and output transformers in there, sure. But then it won't sound right. There's a reason that Sowter is among about 6 respected audio tranformer manufacturers, out of the thousands of trannie folk out there. It's not rocket science, it's art, and it's not cheap.

I can use cheaper steel, thinner faceplates, offshore connectors, cheesy switches, a $.50 pot, and still only drop maybe at the most $100 off the parts. That's including using the cheap ass audio trannies. Oh, yeah I'd have to buy some significant volumes of parts as well.

Because I'm in a small niche market, my mark-up is still gonna be only 5 or 6 times, but my dealers will have lost all faith in my product, so I'll stop selling them, unless I go to the devil, get some money for a big ass advertising budget, get them into GC and MF, lie about how damn good they are and they're class A and they have transformers !!!! and I'll probably sell lots of them to schmucks.

Not what I want to do in my dream. I'll stick to making good, highly respected stuff that I'm proud of, and if you guys gotta scrape a few more bucks together, well, so be it. Didn't your Mom tell you it was better to wait for the good stuff?

You want cheaper? Buy cheaper, but you'll get what you pay for.

And I realize that while Popmann may not be the biggest fan of GR stuff, his opinion is entirely valid, and I respect it, but I hear a whole lot more that are more enthusiastic, and that's what keeps me working on building the current crop of products as well as possible and designing new ones to add to the line.

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:
Hey, guys...don't you know you're not supposed to argue with DOT about pres? It was in the agreement when you signed up. Joking...

No, its just that he'll kick our asses if we attack him (subtle aikido joke, sorry)!

I started with DMP3 and Mackie pres. My next steps were a Meek VC6Q, rnp and A&H Mix Wiz pres. While all of those were a noticeable step up from the Mackie, none of them are giant. The DMP3 is a very good introductory pre that can still hold its place. I go up and down on the rnp. Its a good pre, but there are mics and situations where it just doesn't do it for me. The VC6Q has color that is very useful in its place. All good.

My next pres were a 1NV, A-Designs and BAE 312. Line them up with the old pres and its night and day. All the other pres were useful and good at times. The higher end pres convey qualities in tone that stand out. The sonic pallette is more vibrant and diverse. I can get more interesting mixes where different instruments and parts stand out better.

There are plenty of "mid-priced" pres that I haven't tried and can't honestly talk about. I just can't imagine why I'd really want to. Now, help me decide between Millenia, Hardy or Phoenix, I'll add one or two channels of Sebatron and call my pre crusade done.

quote:

And I realize that while Popmann may not be the biggest fan of GR stuff, his opinion is entirely valid, and I respect it, but I hear a whole lot more that are more enthusiastic, and that's what keeps me working on building the current crop of products as well as possible and designing new ones to add to the line.

First, I'd like to thank you for participating in this discussion, man.

Second...I'm not sure I would say I'm not the biggest fan...well, OK, judging from some around these parts, I'm not, but...that has, IMO, MUCH more to do with my likes and dislikes than the quality of your product. First, it's built like a brick shithouse. No doubt. Does it get a stronger level to tape (forgive my age)...than cheapy pres-yes. Other than wanting to see a variable HPF on it, I'm a pretty happy camper. It does a fine job on acoustic guitar--not Millenia true, but fine job. From what I can tell, it would kick ass on drums--which I outsource.

I think actually that I just fall into that category of I'd rather a preamp be "straight wire with gain" or tubey softening. The NV, IMO, falls in between those two. Adding more of an edge than either. Which would kick ass for rock. I don't know if you've heard my stuff, but...it ain't really rock.

I recently cut vocals on 5 tracks...I used the Great River on 3, a Demeter VTM something-or other on 1, and the UA LA610 on the last. U87 on 4 and the ADK Hamburg on one. Over all, I like the tones I got from the NV best.

Had I to do this whole experiment over...I'd probably stick to my original plan--HV3b and a one channel tube pre(Manley, probably). But, you know, I think the NV is a nice pre. Probably if I matched it up with your EQ1, it would rock more.

So...I don't gush about it. Only thing I gush about the UA is electric guitar...and honestly, a $400 Brick I borrowed came damn close.

The next vocals I cut, I'll have an La2a here to run it through...that should put more than enough tube mojo on it for me. I think it's a solid piece. When I cut acoustic, I wish I had two channels.

Anyway, I'm a firm believer in a piece of gear finding it's place (or not) over time. The Great River has certainly found a place around here. The fact that it's still around says something.

Thanks again for chiming in Dan. What ever happened to the other line of pres you made? Didn't you discontinue them? They were actually less expensive per channel, no? Cleaner...truer?

great thread, very informative and I love how people can post their opinions here and discuss them without getting all bent out of shape!

quote:

Also, what about the Safe Sound P1? Have you used that piece yet, Dot? From what I hear it's an excellent value, if not for the pre (which I've heard is good but vanilla) than for the compressor. Supposedly the compressor and peak limiter are just unbelievably transparent.

I too, would love to know where people place the Safesound in all this? It sells for a pretty good price here in Aus, considering it has the comp as well.

Have you tried it Dot? and thanks for giving such excellent opinions to get these threads started

Tube

quote:

First off, the cost of parts in a single channel preamp is over $200. There is no way that sending it offshore is going to change the end sale price, nor am I willing to hand off the responsibility for the product quality to somebody who's name ain't Kennedy.

I can put cheaper input and output transformers in there, sure. But then it won't sound right. There's a reason that Sowter is among about 6 respected audio tranformer manufacturers, out of the thousands of trannie folk out there. It's not rocket science, it's art, and it's not cheap.

I can use cheaper steel, thinner faceplates, offshore connectors, cheesy switches, a $.50 pot, and still only drop maybe at the most $100 off the parts. That's including using the cheap ass audio trannies. Oh, yeah I'd have to buy some significant volumes of parts as well.

Because I'm in a small niche market, my mark-up is still gonna be only 5 or 6 times, but my dealers will have lost all faith in my product, so I'll stop selling them, unless I go to the devil, get some money for a big ass advertising budget, get them into GC and MF, lie about how damn good they are and they're class A and they have transformers !!!! and I'll probably sell lots of them to schmucks.

Not what I want to do in my dream. I'll stick to making good, highly respected stuff that I'm proud of, and if you guys gotta scrape a few more bucks together, well, so be it. Didn't your Mom tell you it was better to wait for the good stuff?

You want cheaper? Buy cheaper, but you'll get what you pay for.

And I realize that while Popmann may not be the biggest fan of GR stuff, his opinion is entirely valid, and I respect it, but I hear a whole lot more that are more enthusiastic, and that's what keeps me working on building the current crop of products as well as possible and designing new ones to add to the line.

I have a preamp I built from a Jensen drawing which is a twin servo. Transformer, bud box, connectors and all, I doubt I have over $100 in it. I have an Audio Precision Sys 2722A which it looks real good thru to. Sounds pretty incredible too.

But still, the Gordon Instruments pre is the best I have ever used but it is far more than I can afford at $5,000 a channel.

Ben,

I can do it to. That's one Jensen, right, not input and output?, that'd be another $50, right there. Is your box painted and screen printed around the connectors, with a good looking and rugged front panel with laser engraved text?

I've got preamps here that I've built that sound amazing with $5 surplus transformers in chassis that I bought at the same surplus joint, I might have $20 in them total, but that's apples and oranges. You don't have a commercial product at this point.