Wow. This is getting deep. On the lighter side, I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that said, "I Was Born OK The First Time"

In my personal experience it seems as though, on average, the people who wear their Christianity on their sleeve tend to have a lower moral character than the general population. I have a theory about this. Religious people who are insecure about their moral grouding, knowing deep down that they are liars and cheats, compensate for this by talking the talk. The Christians I've known who really walk the walk tend to be quiet and secure in their beliefs.

When I go into somebody's office and see a bunch of religious plaques and biblical sayings on the wall my guard goes up immediately.

I think this to be true for any religion. And FWIW: I know of no Biblical passage nor commandment that declares "Thou shalt be poor."

Its all perspective, really...kind of like taxes...a $10 donation to a church may be nothing to some families, but to another family might be the difference between eating well or not for a few days.

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The Christians I've known who really walk the walk tend to be quiet and secure in their beliefs.

When I go into somebody's office and see a bunch of religious plaques and biblical sayings on the wall my guard goes up immediately.

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Sometimes those who speak the loudest in volume have the least to say or are least qualified to say it.

So you've been to some of our faculty meetings?

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Originally posted by Tao Jones:
Guitwiz, your first post was quite cool to me.

The second is same old look away as far as I can see. You say show you where it says it:

How about it's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Tao,
If every parable in the Bible was to be taken "literally", in the physical and mental sense, then why dont we gouge our left eye out, and cut off our left hand? I understand your confusion with Bible quotes, as I have MANY of my own...

Not to call you out, but what about my last post made you look far far away? I think thats what you meant, I'm not sure.

Another form of mamman worship can also be someones "Gibson Jumbo"...

I try everyday to not make my recording space my main focus. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesnt...

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When I go into somebody's office and see a bunch of religious plaques and biblical sayings on the wall my guard goes up immediately.

What are you guarding?

Thats a simple question, not nasty, or arguementative.

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Another form of mamman worship can also be someones "Gibson Jumbo"...

Well, that would be right on target if I thought of myself as Christian, but 'heathen' fits me better.

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Not to call you out, but what about my last post made you look far far away? I think thats what you meant, I'm not sure.

I just meant it seemed like what everyone tends to do: look away from Jesus saying to give away their stuff.

But you know, tecker gave a good run down which makes plenty of sense, and I'm thinking of other things now. I don't really care if Christians have money or no.

I have been reading Genesis and also Exodus.

I like it. I think it's absurd to take it as a description of something that actually happened, but the make up of the human mind is surely not primarily logical or even sensible.

But I read it all differently now. I don't care if it's true. It flows over my head like Grimms Tales and then begins to work on my sunconscious and then my songs get better.

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What are you guarding?

I'm guarding against getting screwed. All I can say is that in my own personal experience I have been screwed in one way or another at a disproportionately high frequency by people who profess to be Christian and who are outward about their beliefs. I've thought about this and tried to determine if I particularly remember the screwing when they have fish symbols and religious sayings on their wall, or when they bring up Jesus when their religious beliefs have nothing to do with the business we are conducting. But I honestly don't think so. In the last 30 years it's happened with remarkable frequency and two of my best friends have noted the same phenomenon.

I'll give you just one example that happens to relate to recording. I've recorded exactly one Christian band. I've had exactly one band not pay me. I'll let you guess if there's a connection. I finally collected because I got so mad I called the mother of one of the band members (he went to school with my daughter) and told her that her son owed me money and could she please ask him to return my phone calls (I'd left numerous messages on the guy's cell phone). Then, when the little asshole called me he said the reason he hadn't gotten back to me is because he was so busy getting ready to go on a mission! I swear, I'm not making this up.

I wish this was an ususual example but it isn't. As I said in my original post, I have found vocal Christians to generally be of below average moral character. The more Christian an individual professes to be the more careful I am in conducting any kind of business transaction.

You know, unfortunately I remember that happening with me also, back in the day.

I could have typed your exact story..pretty closely.

Just try not to let that cloud your mind about who Jesus really is. I totally believe your story, and I am sorry you had to deal with it.

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Just try not to let that cloud your mind about who Jesus really is. I totally believe your story, and I am sorry you had to deal with it.

Not to worry - I don't blame Jesus. There's plenty of rotten people who are not Christians but it's the hypocracy of the slimy holy types that really gets to me.

Well, I am pretty rotten too. Would be nice not to have my temper...but then I would be deprived of hunting down people and twisting them into A PRETZEL TYPE THING!!!AGGGHHH!

sorry, I lost it a bit there.

breathe...breathe...

People have many different reasons for rejecting the Gospel. A common one is to blame Christians for something they did, or did not do.These critics say, "I know a Christian who treated me poorly." Or, "I went to church and nobody talked to me."

Indeed, Christians aren't perfect, and many can be bad examples. But blaming others doesn't remove one's accountability to God.

The truth of the Gospel does not depend on the way others live out their faith. Salvation is about Jesus alone. Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe Him in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Some people may use Christians as an excuse to reject the Gospel. But they certainly can't point a finger of blame at Jesus. He is sinless and perfect in every way. Pilate said of Him. "I have found no fault with this man" (Luke 23:14). And Jesus did what no one else could do- He suffered death on the cross to provide salvation for all that believe in Him. That makes it tough for someone to say, "I'm not going to become a Christian because I don't like what Jesus did."

Don't get sidetracked by looking at the faults of others. Look to Jesus. He alone is the way to Heaven.

This is from "Our Daily Bread" on Oct 5-07.

This explains much better than I ever could.

Peace!

I hadn't noticed this topic before, but I always relish the opportunity to talk religion.

I've had a lot of good experiences with Christians, but a lot of bad ones as well. However, as it's been said: this in no way effects the validity of the gospels. They're either true or untrue. All Christians could start running around cutting people's heads off and it wouldn't effect the accuracy of the Bible one iota.

In actuality, your run-of-the-mill Christian has typically been very kind and open and understanding towards me. It's those Baptists you gotta look out for. The Baptists I've come in contact with are very volitile, judgemental, underhanded and malicious. Could be just the little (or not so little) enclave in my town, as they're really the only ones who I have regular contact with.

I do, however, reject the idea of Christianity, and for many reasons. My current favorite argument goes something like this: The Christian God, being all-knowing, knew, even before he created us, exactly what each of us would do. Exactly what choices we'd make, what thoughts we'd think... everything. For example, he knew that I'd be a guitarist and have a daughter and love sushi and overthink nearly everything. He also KNEW that I'd reject him. If he knew all these things and STILL decided to create me, then he must've found all my future actions desireable. I'm living my life in EXACTLY the way God knew I would.

If his love for me is so boundless, so uncomprehensible and vast, then why would he create me in such a way that I'm going to end up in eternal pain and torment? Sure, my choices are what condemn me to hell, but he KNEW I'd choose wrong. You don't ask your kid to help you cut up onions if you KNOW they're going to slice their hand off.

Thoughts?

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Not to worry - I don't blame Jesus. There's plenty of rotten people who are not Christians but it's the hypocracy of the slimy holy types that really gets to me.

It may be that the most rotten, slimey critters actually gravitate to churches because, in reality, they need it the most? Maybe on some sort of subconscious level they know they desparately need redemption?

Don't know.

I don't do much in the way of church these days I think because I'm not too comfortable with "Christianity" per se anymore. I love the history of it - it's truly fascinating. The Gnostics fascinate me too - the missing gospels, Mary Magdalene's relationship to Christ, the deaths of the Apostles, etc. The manipulation of the texts (removal of the Apocrypha, etc.) by Constantine and King James is fascinating too. Richard Friedman's book on The Hidden Book in the Bible (Old Testament) is fascinating too (some meanings undergo some radical changes - Sodom and Gommorah for example).

Seems they all go back to a "mother religion" somewhere? Ancient Sumerians had the same flood stories and I believe the Eden story as well, long before Judaeo/Christians. Very interesting stuff.

Pagan religions are fascinating too. It must all stem from an individual's need to survive his own death, to somehow achieve immortality, to not allow extinguishing of the sentient self?

It's all fascinating.

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Originally posted by WalkerGibson:

I do, however, reject the idea of Christianity, and for many reasons. My current favorite argument goes something like this: The Christian God, being all-knowing, knew, even before he created us, exactly what each of us would do. Exactly what choices we'd make, what thoughts we'd think... everything.

...
Thoughts?

That whole "free will" thing kinda throws a wrench in that. The issue is that God created humanity with free will, and that belief in God is a CHOICE. I've never bought into determinism as a central tenet of Christianity.

For me, that's the beauty of Christianity...the choice.

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Originally posted by i.Combs:
That whole "free will" thing kinda throws a wrench in that. The issue is that God created humanity with free will, and that belief in God is a CHOICE. I've never bought into determinism as a central tenet of Christianity.

For me, that's the beauty of Christianity...the choice.

Yeah, it seems that "free will" and "omniscience" are kind of oxymoronic.

If God knows everything, then he knows, and has always known, how it'll all turn out. Thus, everything is already determined (including the "choices" we make).

Isn't there Biblical support for both "free will" and "omniscience"? Can these things be reconciled?

I heard on NPR that it was Ghandi that came up with "Hate the sin, not the sinner." Thought that was interesting.

While a "good" person, I never considered Ghandi a Christian. Did he believe that Jesus was the Messiah?

Loooove Bonhoeffer. Especially some of the essays I have heard. very impressive individual who really worked through the terrible double speak of his day.

I like your last line ADA. Very true.
conga

I have really been into studying creationism in the last few years. You know, before the Virgin Birth, obviously the world was created. It was created before any beliefs existed. And no, its totally impossible for it to be billions of years old.

There is a ton of proof there. Unfortunately, it does not make it to CNN, or the papers, or American Idol!

I totally understand Walkers ideas about these subjects, it seems to not make sense sometimes. But in all honesty, questioning time aligned explanations can just make a person more the "boss", than a believer.

If there were constant cleancut totally believable directions, without doubt, and daily physical proof of God, faith would have no merit.

I may not be wording this right, but this is what happens when I try to type!! HAR!!

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Originally posted by Guitwizz:
But in all honesty, questioning time aligned explanations can just make a person more the "boss", than a believer.

While I'd definitely acknowledge the possibility that perhaps things aren't happening in a time aligned, sequential order, all evidence points to the fact that they are. In trying to figure out what's going on with the world, God, and existence, what other line of reasoning am I supposed to use? I can only use the logic which has served me so far, which tells me that events occur one after the other. God wants to condition me throughout my entire life to think one way, and then suddenly change the rules in the only area of real importance?

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If there were constant cleancut totally believable directions, without doubt, and daily physical proof of God, faith would have no merit.

Why do you think that faith has merit?

Also, could you recommend some of the "Proof Of Creationism" sources? Religion, and Christianity specifically, is a fascinating subject, and I love reading all points of view on the subject.

ADA,

So many well chosen words in your response. I agree with practically everything...I would say that for a "Christian" to truly be Christian is to buy into the idea that she/he never does anything right in thought, word or deed and so never "arrives" as you say. But they are made right with God only by being cloaked or found in the Jesus of The New Testament. Being Justified before God by Jesus and not by anything done by the individual themselves.

Ghandi was inspiring and has truth and even Boenhoffer wanted to see him I think....but if Ghandi's hope in life or death was anything but Christ than I think calling him Christian might be inauthentic for him.

Nice conversation so far fellahs!

Peace
conga