"My belief is that Ghandi and all other religions have truth and beautiful things but that where they and Jesus depart on how to redeem the world and have peace with God they are wrong. I really don't know enough about Ghand..."

But you don't really have to, thanks to your world view. All you need to know is that he isn't a Christian, and he becomes someone to take less than serious. I feel genuinely bad for how small this makes your world, but at the same time my philosophy is that if it keeps you off the streetsm then it's not business of mine. I'm glad we got to the bottom of it, though: Christian: good. Anything and everything else: not really very important to you.

Jazzooo,

Really I feel I am just cutting the "Gordian Knot" so to speak.

Believing reality and following things to their logical conclusion hardly makes my world small and I have been open to discussion here and I think I have brought a decent tone.

"Not at all. It would only make him dead. The falseness would be those who have been lying about his resurrection ever since they knew he had died. I'm sure you and I both know quite a few who would be guilty of this."

In light of the scriptures I have posted do you still hold to the qoute above or is that still too small?

The Liar
conga

quote:

All you need to know is that he isn't a Christian, and he becomes someone to take less than serious.

Absolutely right. And that, seriously, is a problem.

And even worse than "taken less seriously" - take it a step further: How about utter disrespect, disregard, maybe even persecution. Remember, most Nazi's were Christians. Remember also that the Catholics and the Lutherans, et al., took 50 years or so to apologize for doing NOTHING to oppose the Nazi reign of terror on the Jews. That, to me, is remarkable! Remember also that great numbers of American Christians, including prominent people like Charles Lindburgh supported Hitler's pogroms and worse. Look how China reacts to the awarding of a medal to the Dalai Lama, today - horrified! Amazing.

The "we're right and you're wrong" is a horribly arrogant and narrow position taken by some members of the 2,000+ "sects" of protestantism in this country and to some extent the two oldest churches as well. "We are right, everyone else is damned." It's also shared by fundamentalist Muslim Jihadis too. Absolutism is dangerous.

And that attitude infects so many things around us, doesn't it? It's easier now to turn a blind eye to people not of the "faith" or worse, within: "oh he's a Baptist, we Pentecostals don't mingle (insert tongue talk... blbsdadbghdsfwbl blah blah blah) with them." Just another institutionalized prejudice. Certainly created intentionally. American churches are really nothing more than "feel-good" retreats, sort of akin to a day spa. Then when the gathering breaks up for juice and cookies the pillars of the community can talk business. Good stuff, gotta love it. Phoney plastic nonsense.

I took hiking tours a few years back of 3rd and 4th century monasteries in Eastern Europe (and Eurasia I guess) and what we think of as "church" here is completely and utterly false and ridiculous - a dim facade of what once was. The rituals and "Holy Mysteries" are completely gone, entire books of the bible like the Apocrypha... gone. It's a terrible shame to see where Christianity has essentially lost its soul (no pun intended). All the history and sheer spectacle of it is gone here - stripped of everything. The original church - Orthodox Catholic (or vice versa, I always forget which order) was an assault on the senses: the majesty of rock cathedrals that withstood Muslim invasions, bandits, everything else; the ancient Byzantine art icons of the saints; real wine - made at the monasteries; the rose incense buring on charcoal; Monks and Nuns chanting the Psalms in call and response. If you ever get a chance to see the old church, you won't ever forget it.

Of course the problem with seeing the old church is that you want more, you dig further back, the Gnostic gospels are AMAZING in their bizarreness and mystery - absolutely fascinating. These of course go against the desire and will of the Nicene Council and subsequent meetings of "righteous" brothers, so are considered heretical. You can't control the behavior of the masses with the writings of the actual apostles floating around. Most of these documents of course were destroyed because of that. Thank God for the Nag Hamadi, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc., etc. Now, slowly the truth (as they saw it) is being revealed - awesome to see these words coming to life after so many years. I went to a bland whitebread phoney plastic Christian University (kinda sucked actually - but it was the only one offering the double major I wanted) so you can imagine the arguments I got into with a couple of instructors on the two or three required "Christian Bible" classes. They never answered my questions BTW. Bring up the word Gnostic in a protestant college and watch the blood drain away from the profs upper body GREAT fun! Usually the answer was: "You need to take textual criticism class for that discussion." Of course they didn't offer that class - too funny!

But why not dig further back? How does one explain the ancient Sumerians having some of the same "bible" stories? Floods, Messiah's, etc? The Sumerians may have been the light shining on the hill, in as far as technology, spirituality, civilization advancements, etc. They were considered ancient by the Babylonians.

How does one explain the fact that aboriginal tribes (regardless of location), contacted for the first time by explorers are observed worshipping a god or gods or other spiritual entities? Any other-worldy being at all, it doesn't matter. How is it that, with no help from the outside world, they worship a god or a godlike thing? It could be the spirits of ancestors or trees or the sun, it doesn't matter - the fact that IT exists is what is truly amazing. Is there a culture on the face of the earth that is not or was not somehow involved in some sort of spiritual life? Are their atheist tribes out there somewhere?

Somehow, there are a bunch of different paths, different people are on. To discount everything else or those on a different path is arrogant and foolish - and can be very dangerous (IMO).

BTW: In the original church, there is/was no such thing as "born again" or the ever-popular-yet-arrogant "I know I'm saved" or "speaking in tongues" or "passing the collection plate" or any of this foolishness. These are all feel-good modern gimmicks.

Interesting stuff.

First of all, thanks conga for forcing me to Google so I could learn what a Gordian Knot was!

"Believing reality and following things to their logical conclusion hardly makes my world small and I have been open to discussion here and I think I have brought a decent tone."

I have no problems with your tone, CL. I don't think putting 'Ghandi and other religions' down because they don't believe exactly what your preferred form of Christianity believes is that decent a tone, but it's not horrible.

It definitely isn't 'believing reality,' though. It's believing in the teachings of your religion, which I can respect. Lots of others believe in their religions too, as fiercely as you do. That's not reality either--it's a belief system.

""Not at all. It would only make him dead. The falseness would be those who have been lying about his resurrection ever since they knew he had died. I'm sure you and I both know quite a few who would be guilty of this."

"In light of the scriptures I have posted do you still hold to the qoute above or is that still too small?"

I sense an insult in there somewhere, but no, it doesn't change my mind in the context of what I was saying. If he wasn't actually resurrected, then all those who came after him who taught that he *had* been would have been the liars and sinners, I suppose you'd call them. Hard to see why you wouldn't agree with this.

Jesus claims to be The Way, The Truth and The Life which has claims on ALL reality and so would have impact on every other claim that would actively or passively compete with his in whatever way.
This doesn't mean that I know necessarily the "Christian" way at every juncture (as I am finite and sinful) but I do wish to live as someone who takes the Jesus of scripture seriously. I just don't take man seriously.

All other religious/irreligious people do the exact opposite. They take man waaaay too seriously and don't take Jesus and his teachings seriously enough. That is the common denominator I find between cultural "christians" and the people who lack hope for them (as well as all other religions/cults). It all boils down too moral finger pointing (works) and how their works are better (what they do or do not do) rather than the story of the Gospel. How you know your looking at a Christian is when you see someone making EVERYTHING a Gospel issue. From Global Warming to whether someone follows through on picking up a piece of trash they have committed to picking up in their mind.

Jazzooo,

If he is "just dead" than he did not fulfill his prophecy and is a false prophet and a liar. If he is still buried than Jesus is wrong and the disciples were liars. But...the tomb is empty. Something we should all rejoice in!

Peace
conga

quote:

Originally posted by congalocke:
Jesus claims to be The Way, The Truth and The Life

So did the sixteen or so other "saviors" who:

- were born of virgin mothers
- were prophesied to be the "saviors" of mankind
- were killed or crucified for the redemption of mankind
- allegedly were born on or around the winter solstice

And all of whom did all these miraculous things a couple of thousand years before Jesus was alleged to have been born.

quote:

which has claims on ALL reality and so would have impact on every other claim that would actively or passively compete with his in whatever way.

As did the previous messiahs long before Jesus. It didn't make their claims any more legit either.

quote:

This doesn't mean that I know necessarily the "Christian" way at every juncture (as I am finite and sinful) but I do wish to live as someone who takes the Jesus of scripture seriously. I just don't take man seriously.

Which is why, IMHO, religion isn't doing the world any favors. The focus on scripture and "the next life" usually takes energy and focus away from this life. We all *should* be taking humanity far more seriously than we currently do.

quote:

All other religious/irreligious people do the exact opposite. They take man waaaay too seriously and don't take Jesus and his teachings seriously enough.

Which, again, is why god/messiah belief tends to do more harm than good in the world. If only more Christians *would* take Jesus' teachings to heart and do as he did and take humanity more seriously.....

Amen.

quote:

Which is why, IMHO, religion isn't doing the world any favors. The focus on scripture and "the next life" usually takes energy and focus away from this life. We all *should* be taking humanity far more seriously than we currently do.

I agree. It's way too easy to have an attitude that things will be just fine in the afterlife and excuse or dismiss things going on in the now.

I think that's part of the reason the Gospels of the actual apostles are seen as heretical. There seem to be many different references to the idea that Jesus said (when asked) the kingdom of heaven was already here on earth, we just couldn't see it unless we looked. Something like that. So that takes a a lot of air out of the revisionist's rapture idea, for example - sort of forces you to take a look at making the here-and-now something worthwhile.

Concerning 16 other "saviors" I have no reason to doubt that there are people that have been killed for claiming it was for mankind and I have no doubt that they are still in the grave. I'd be more impressed if they were dead because they wouldn't deny the resurrection of somebody else. See...I just don't believe that people are willing to die for what they know to be false. The disciples went from cowards to their death because they saw and talked to Jesus after seeing him die.

I think that Christianity has done the world a whole bunch of good from hospitals to orphanages (spe?).
There have been terrible things done in the name of Christianity as well but I would say that it wasn't Christian at all.

I agree with you 1adam12 that the whole idea of the rapture has an impact. Rather than waiting for The Coming of Jesus it is more like they are waiting for Their Escape From the Earth. There is a lot of Gnostic influence in contemporary christianity where flesh and bone is bad even though God created it. Hmmm?

The here and now is important as Jesus seems fit to give us breath to type these things out on our keyboards and I would say that the here and now is part of a trajectory that we are all living out. A trajectory that will one day go from academic to unavoidable reality. If Jesus is not raised than eat and drink for tomorrow we die. And as encouraging as that is I don't know of many atheists that travel the world to share that message with others.

That could be a funny cartoon or some such. The Atheist Missionary. I need to get on the line with Matt Stone and Trey Parker....

Peace
conga

quote:

Originally posted by congalocke:
I have never reflected on "Christ like" except superficially. Nobody can be like Christ in thought word and deed...at least if the scriptures are to be believed.

Saved by Works
conga

I can understand how you arrive at this belief; with all the incredible miracles that Jesus preformed, how can we copy that!
But, how does one reconcile your comment above with the following words of Scripture.

Christ-likeness is to have the same thoughts and desires towards God and our fellow man.

"Christ-like" is to surrender our wills (desires) and to prefer God's will (His desires for us). As we do this (and only by the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives) we become more obedient to the will of God and therefore, more Christ-like (in character). In this way we can become like Jesus in thought, word and deed.

How much like Jesus we become is an individual matter, and is in direct proportion to how much of our wills we surrender to His will.
This is to be the highest goal of a sincere Christian.

There is clear evidence in Scripture that our characters that are to become Christ-like, and that is is God's goal that this should happen.

Rom 8:28 And we know that he works all things together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first born among many brothers.


In thought

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

In word

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

In deed

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do he shall do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The sad thing is, many like to be called Christians without realising the beauty of life that is available when they understand the full meaning of the title.

Sights,
My response was to the definition that Christian means being Christ-Like. I think that true Sanctification results in one knowing their sinfulness Mo' Bettah' the results of which is more reliance on Jesus The Christ.

I would agree with you that that He has left us an example that we should follow in it. But I am trying to put forth here the Reformed idea of Simul ustus et piccato (spe?) or Simultaniously Sin and Just. The advancements the Christian makes in life towards our Sanctification are extremely small. This is why Christ is not relegated to Supreme Cheerleader but is actually the doer of The Faith.

Abraham is terrified about making the agreement with God (walking through the two animal halves) because he cannot keep up his end of the bargain. I believe God did it...he makes the demands and than keeps them perfectly and bestows that gift on those who are his peoples.
The very thought of that kind of graciousness takes out any desire for me to pursue my own ends that are at conflict with the God of the scriptures. That He has predestined me to be conformed to the image of his Son gives me the comfort to keep pursuing even though I know what I am he will justify a wicked person like me.

I believe that "Ought Implies Can" is a humanistic invention. This is why the disciples start to choke when Jesus tells them that their righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees, who tithed their mint and cummin (spe?) which was just and right.

Having the mind of Christ is what we must pursue...if you read any of my previous posts you will see that my desire is to call myself a liar rather than God and that this is this best one can do to catch the heresy that we all have and are just not aware of. Lusting for example is something a Christian may struggle with and walk away just fine after a battle in the mind. A little stronger for the schizo war that has just taken place. I think the success of Jesus is that he did not have that impulse of thinking about "Want to touch the heinyyyyy." He could walk by someone who is extremely well off and not even see the wealth and was concerned about that which truly mattered. I have had success in these areas but I don't believe for one moment that my struggle and Jesus' were anything alike. He just did it.

Concerning John 14:12 I believe that the greater works that Christians do is participating in the spread of the Gospel. Somebody professing Christ is a greater miracle than somebody being healed for X number of years. Eternal Life always trounces Eternal Death.

I wish we could all be sitting over coffee while cutting a few tracks together. That would be fun.

Saved by Works!
conga

It seems to me that everyone here is judging and gauging the term "Christian" by what is called "Christianity" today.........today's so called "Christianity" is nothing more than pagan religion, with everyone doing as they see fit......good deeds mean nothing, and will not get you into heaven. Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the only way.

Check out some folks who follow the Anabaptist traditions, these are the ones "walking the walk" in today's world. Go to This Site and read a little, order a CD, and learn something about what REAL Christianity is about......there are still folks who practice it.....like the Old Order Amish, Hutterites, Mennonite, Brethren, and some home churches in the UK and US. I specify the older orders because too many of the "new, modern" ones have gone "ecumenical", and lost their first teachings. A lot of the modern day Mennonites are a prime example......

For the last 7 years I've worked very closely with a guy (Ed) who is a "born again" Christian (I'm an atheist). This guy is very smart, well read, and he studies Christianity and other religions as somewhat of a hobby. He's the only person I know who's read the Bible, the Koran, and the Book of Mormon, as well as a bunch of other religious texts.

We've become good friends and have had dozens of stimulating conversations about religion over the years. I think we've both gained an insight into each other's spiritual views but it's been particularly insightful for me to be able to calmly and intelligently discuss religion with someone who is so well read and informed.

quote:

There have been terrible things done in the name of Christianity as well but I would say that it wasn't Christian at all.

This comment, as well as several others from Conga capsulizes the issue very well. I have concluded from my conversations with Ed that there are two key attributes of a highly religious person; 1) the ability to be absolutely sure that their belief system is correct and is the only valid one, and 2) the ability to hold a belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

The history of Christianity is such an example. Conga's comment about the evil deeds done in the past in the name of Christianity caught my eye. His view that those people were really not Christians is exactly what my friend Ed says. The fascinating thing to me is that someone can believe that many of the world's worst atrocities that were committed in the name of Christianity by the dominant Christian church at the time were really not committed by Christians. Wow.

My major concern with highly religious people is not the hypocrisy as much as the problems that come from believing things that are simply not true.

The best example is evolution. When someone believes the bible creation myth which has no scientific or observable evidence supporting it as opposed to the scientific explanation of our earth's history, it means that that person is capable of ignoring other reality based observable evidence in lieu of superstition and mythology. I think we've seen the result of this phenomenon with the current president and his administration, as well as the Muslim terrorists who want to destroy us. People who believe that the bible (or Koran for that matter) is literally true simply lack the critical thinking skills to make effective leadership decisions.

It's also interesting to see the infrastructure that develops to support a belief that is overwhelmingly contradicted by the scientific evidence. I had discussed evolution several times with my friend Ed and he was kind enough to lend me a book that he said disproved evolution and supported the biblical creation story. I took the book home and went through it. It was obvious from the beginning of the book that it was simply factually wrong. I was a life sciences major in college and I could see immediately that the author was counting on whoever read this book to be uneducated in science because what he was saying was patently not true. I picked out 4 sections of the book and carefully went over them with Ed, showing him that the book was false and misrepresented scientific facts. Ed actually took it pretty well and thanked me for bringing this to his attention so he would know not to recommend the book to anyone else. But did it change his belief in the Christian creation story? Of course not.

To summarize, I'm not just picking on Christians. Anyone who accepts scripture as fact and disregards mountains of incontrovertible scientific evidence is running the risk of making decisions that are bad for them and bad for humanity as a whole. We're seeing that with our current war policy as well as several medical issues. But it isn't just the US. It doesn't take long to list several other examples of dysfunctional governmental policy by people who cite their religious beliefs as a basis for their actions.

But perhaps the biggest problem is that anyone who feels that their belief system is the only right one, and who feels that others are doomed to an inferior afterlife because they don't accept that belief system, are a danger to humanity. It is a small step to denigrate those nonbelievers and consider them less than fully worthy of a happy life on this planet. It is only another small step to marginalize, discriminate, and eventually attack those same nonbelievers in the name of one's own belief system. It's happening right now by Christians, Jews, Muslims, and other religious people around the world.

quote:

It is a small step to denigrate those nonbelievers and consider them less than fully worthy of a happy life on this planet. It is only another small step to marginalize, discriminate, and eventually attack those same nonbelievers in the name of one's own belief system. It's happening right now by Christians, Jews, Muslims, and other religious people around the world.

That's because people confuse the teachings of their religion with the law of the playground. Humanity is a miracle. We have a lot in common with other animals, plus an incredible ability to manipulate our environment, think, feel, make art, industry, invent, learn, adapt, empathize...what are the odds? Pretty darn slim. Maybe as statistically slim as there being a God. Yet, here we are, by golly. Let's make the best of it.

Mr. Tracy

quote:

When someone believes the bible creation myth which has no scientific or observable evidence supporting it as opposed to the scientific explanation of our earth's history, it means that that person is capable of ignoring other reality based observable evidence in lieu of superstition and mythology.

There is NO scientific evidence, in the TRULY scientific method of repeatable, observable facts, that supports evolution. Not one shred. If you know of any true, repeatable evidence, please point me to the site, or the published paper on it. I knew that evolution was a joke before I began to study the Bible, it is nothing more that a religion in itself, supported by our tax dollars.

Again, please point me to the scientific evidence, so I may check it out. Please tell me the book title your friend Ed lent you, and point out the sections that you found that were wrong. I would be very interested in this. You can send me a private message if you want.

quote:

There is NO scientific evidence, in the TRULY scientific method of repeatable, observable facts, that supports evolution.

This is a common misperception. Much if not most of science is observation and correlation. Scientists carefully observe phenomenon in the world around us and they attempt to correlate their observations with other repeatable observations to derive explanations of how things work.

Let's take two examples.
1) Do you accept the idea that the earth revolves around the sun? We have arrived at this scientific fact purely through observation and correlation. Scientists have created a model for how the planets and the sun behave in their orbital patterns and this model has been verified in a number of different ways. There is no way to prove this fact with a controlled double-blind experiment, however. I would assume that if the bible said that the sun orbits the earth you would believe the bible. There's no way to prove otherwise.
2) Do you believe that AIDS is caused by the HIV virus? We have come to this understanding through observation and correlation but we cannot prove the link with a controlled experiment. We just cannot infect a group of humans with the HIV virus and another group with a placebo virus to see if the HIV group gets AIDS. Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe does not believe that the HIV virus causes AIDS. I would assume that you would say that there is no scientific way to prove the link to him.

When it comes to the scientific model of the earth's age and the evolutionary history of the living organisms on it, there is at least as much scientific evidence as there is regarding the orbital behavior of our solar system.

In the case of the earth's history it mostly boils down to one repeatedly observable phenomenon. That is the observable fact that radioactive isotopes decay at predictable rates which can be measured. By measuring the quantities and ratios of certain isotopes in the earth's layers of rocks and sediments scientists can date those layers. Then, it follows that fossils found in those layers can be dated both by the age of the rocks around them and can also be dated by looking at the fossil material itself.

I'm not going to get into a lot of detail here but for me, the dating of rock layers in the earth is pretty much like the observations on the solar system or the AIDS disease. No respectiable scientists question these measureable, repeatable observations. They have been measured, verified, and correlated thousands of times by different scientists all over the world and they are remarkably consistent. If someone could disprove the concept of radio isotope dating it would totally make the headlines and it would blow the geological scientific world apart.

If you accept the methodology of radio isotope dating then, as far as evolution is concerned, the rest is downhill from there. Scientists have created an incredibly consistent model of how life evolved and how long it took. The earth is about 4 billion years old, human-like creatures have been around for about 5 million years, and dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago. There is no scientific evidence that I'm aware of that says that the earth is about 6,000 to 10,000 years old as the bible would have us believe.

Smurf, I understand that none of this makes any difference. If you believe that the bible's story of the earth's creation is accurate, there is no amount of scientific observation that will convince you otherwise - and that's fine. You have a perfect right to hold whatever religious beliefs you want. That's what makes this country great. I just don't want you (or people who hold similar beliefs) in charge of our military, our nuclear weapons, or our medical research policy.

quote:

S

"In the case of the earth's history it mostly boils down to one repeatedly observable phenomenon. That is the observable fact that radioactive isotopes degrade at predictable rates which can be measured."

In this case, why can two fossils, buried side by side, in the SAME layer, date 1000's of years apart? Radioactive isotopes have been proven over and over again to be an unreliable forum of dating, and most high school text books state this. The do not decay at an even rate, it is not a constant.

"No respectable scientists question these measurable, repeatable observations. They have been measured, verified, and correlated thousands of times by different scientists all over the world and they are remarkably consistent. If someone could disprove the concept of radio isotope dating it would totally make the headlines and it would blow the geological scientific world apart."

The "geologic layer" is also a bunch of bull. They date the Rock by the fossil that is in the layer.........and how do they know the age of the fossil? By the Rock layer it is found in.......huh?! This is circular reasoning, and makes no sense.

And the reason that there is no "headlines" is because the "scientific community" will not publish anything that goes against their "religion" evolution. It is like the Communist saying Capitalism don't work, if it did there would be tons of proof in the news and library's......but who OWNS those papers and library's?

And I guess we will agree to disagree.....because by looking around I can see what the folks who believe in the evolution religion has done for the world in the last 150 years.......war and greed and the uprising of turmoil. I mean since we are just "animals" it really don't matter, eh?

"because by looking around I can see what the folks who believe in the evolution religion has done for the world in the last 150 years.......war and greed and the uprising of turmoil. I mean since we are just "animals" it really don't matter, eh?"

Talk about drinking your own bathwater, dude. 150 years? Compared to, say, the Spanish Inquisition or the other hundreds of wars fought over religion--between religions? That's closing your eyes to block out truth.

"Talk about drinking your own bathwater, dude. 150 years? Compared to, say, the Spanish Inquisition or the other hundreds of wars fought over religion--between religions? That's closing your eyes to block out truth."

I'm sorry, I was just talking about the time period since evolution has been widely accepted as a scientific fact. I was just returning a remark for a remark.ie "I just don't want you (or people who hold similar beliefs) in charge of our military, our nuclear weapons, or our medical research policy." It was childish, and I apologize for the miss understanding and the comment.

I have not closed my eyes to any of the terrors that has happened in recorded history at all. I acknowledge all the harm and terror that we, as humans, have done to each other, ether in the name of God or just for land because the population has grown. I have studied it, meditated on it, read everything that folks have sent - relayed and/or steered me to. But after 10 years of reading and conversing with folks, for me, the only answer is Jesus Christ, as reveled in the Word of God, the Bible.

I know I have got off track from the original question of the thread, and I have answered that one by stating that folks ought to check out the Anabaptist way of life. I also suggest that anyone who really wants to know how the early church believed and lived should read the Ante-Nicene fathers. These are the folks who lived right after the time of the Apostles. You can read it for free HERE. I recommend only the Ante-Nicene Fathers part, and not the rest since it deals with the combining of Church and State and does not pertain to the way of the early church, nor what was taught by the church.

Since it seems that we will all disagree on the evolution point, I will leave you with the sites and info for you to check out. I feel that Evolution Theory is a way for folks to get around being accountable for their actions, and most that disagree with me feel that Religion is a shield to hide behind for the weak.

This is a great thread, and I look forward to reading more response to it!

quote:

because by looking around I can see what the folks who believe in the evolution religion has done for the world in the last 150 years.......war and greed and the uprising of turmoil. I mean since we are just "animals" it really don't matter, eh?

Who are these people?

I'm not a historian but as far as I can tell the vast majority of human suffering during the last 150 years has been in the name of religion and much of that in the name of Christianity. I don't know of anyone who has attacked another country or murdered a bunch of people in the name of evolution.

Let's see - if we go back about 150 years here's a few examples I can think of...

The Civil War was fought over slavery. The slave owners cited their Christian teachings as a reason for buying and owning slaves. I don't think Darwin had anything to do with that.

U.S. Segregation and Lynchings: The KKK and other segregationists were devout Christians. I've never heard a reference to evolutionary theory as a reason for their murdering and subjugation of African Americans. They did it in the name of God.

WWII - The Holocaust was characterized by a Christian country murdering millions of Jews. I don't think the religions of the perpetrators and the victims was a coincidence. Hitler repeatedly cited Christion doctorine as a reason for his actions and beliefs. Purity of race & ethnicity is certainly a biblical concept.

The Iraq War - I'm pretty sure that George Bush doesn't believe in evolution. He has cited his Christian beliefs many times as the major force guiding his behavior. What we have now is a direct result of those Christian beliefs being the major factor in his decision making.

If you can cite any war or subjugation of humanity where the protagonists cited evolution, natural selection, geological dating, or any other natural science as their rationale for violence then please enlighten me. I don't know of a single case.