quote:

Originally posted by Jazzooo:
Wait, you can't honestly be saying that this was 'the best that God can do'?

God is perfect so the best that He can do is always perfection. When He set up this world it was perfect - then along came sin...

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Look around you, Sights. No, not at your wonderful, blessed family in the richest country with all of the advantages within easy reach, but at the hundreds of millions starving or living in nearly inhuman conditions;

Australia is certinly not the richest country, but it's nice that you think it is; however, I do take you point. As for the starving of the world, we are certainly doing what we can to help.

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at the nuclear threat facing us all, controlled by evil and ego-driven idiots; at the senseless destruction of our natural resources.

The political state of this world is of interest to me only it that I shows where we are in history, and the confirmation of prophercy.
I totally believe that God is still in complete control of this universe and everything in it. Heaven has given everything it can for the salvation of man. God has given Himself in the person of Jesus, and as He is part of the Godhead - what more could be given.
Man still has his free will, and most are still choosing to ignore God's teachings and pleadings (through the Holy Spirit) and follow after their own selfish desires. Thus we have the state of the world today.

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Is God really that much of an underachiever in your mind?

I'm not sure how you have arrived at this point. How could anyone who knows Jesus ever think that God is an underachiever?
Didn't He create this Universe?
Didn't He make it perfect?
Didn't He give us Jesus His Son to teach us how to live?
Didn't the Son of God die in our place?

Like the perfect Father that He is to us, He has given us every lesson in life that is needed to live the life that He wants for us. He has even given up His son - what more could He do for us.... nothing!
There is no greater gift in the Universe. And after doing the best that He could for mankind (the giving the perfect gift of Jesus), in general, we still choose to be under the control of Satan and live life according to our own dictates.

Jazoo, I'm not sure where you want to take this, but I think that you have missed my point completely. It's probably my fault, as I'm not the best writer in the world.
Why don't we just agree to be brothers in the Lord, on the same path that Jesus made for us to follow. We may not always see eye to eye, but we can agree that Jesus as our supreme example, and the Bible and the supreme guide book to life.

"Why don't we just agree to be brothers in the Lord, on the same path that Jesus made for us to follow. We may not always see eye to eye, but we can agree that Jesus as our supreme example, and the Bible and the supreme guide book to life."

You must be joking Sights. Do you really think this is a rational response?

"Didn't He create this Universe?"

No. Who told you he did?

"Didn't He make it perfect?"

No, obviously not. Your standards are way too low.

"Didn't He give us Jesus His Son to teach us how to live?"

No.

"Didn't the Son of God die in our place?"

No, absolutely not.

If you can call 'perfect' a sorry world where little children die of starvation every single hour while you pat yourself on the back about how you're doing all you can, simply because you believe God created it, then you must be a master at rationalization. Kind of like saying Revolution #9 must have been a great song, because John Lennon wrote it. Sometimes it helps to actually listen!

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I'm not sure how you have arrived at this point. How could anyone who knows Jesus ever think that God is an underachiever?
Didn't He create this Universe?

The contradictory accounts of the biblical creation between Genesis 1 and 2 don't really lend much credence to this notion. Besides, long before this particular creation myth was concocted, there were quite a number of older creation stories brought forth. Depending on which one you want to favor:

- the ancient Egyptians say it was Ptah who created the world by cracking open a cosmic egg (from which the sun and moon were formed).
- the Shilluks of the White Nile in Africa say it was Juok who created the world and created humans from the various colors of soil upon it (explaining the various human skin colorations).
- the Babylonians claimed that their god cut off his head and that the other minor gods collected his blood and mixed it with the clay of the earth to form men.
- the ancient Greeks have a similar claim that Prometheus used the clay of the earth to create humans and beasts.
- for the Maori's of New Zealand, the god Tiki mixed his own blood with red clay to model a man in his own image. He then breathed into the models nose and mouth causing it to come alive and sneeze. The first man was called Tiki Ahua (Tiki's likeness).
- for the ancient Tahitians, the first couple were created by their god Taaroa. After creating the world, Taaroa created the first man from red clay. Then he put the man to sleep, extracted a bone from him, and created the first woman. And, no, the ancient Tahitians didn't get that notion from some European missionary as it exhisted as part of their oral traditions thousands of years before Europeans ever set foot in Polynesia.

This is but a small sampling of the numerous creation myths that were around LONG before the two contradictory Judaic versions were put down in Genesis.

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Didn't He make it perfect?

We marvel at its vastness and contruction, but we see only a tiny sliver of it. The relatively little we actually know about the universe can hardly lead us to conclude that it's "perfect". With regard to the earth, I can't imagine how anyone could consider things like earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, floods and hurricanes to be part of a "perfect" plan.

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Didn't He give us Jesus His Son to teach us how to live?

Well see, that's problematic as well. There are records of about 30 (not the 16 number I used earlier) savior god cults that spread all over the world in ancient times and show evidence of a common origin. The Savior-Gods themselves all had these similar traits:

- born on or near the winter solstice
- born of virgin mothers
- born in a cave or stable
- worked for the salvation of humanity
- were called Saviors, Mediators, Healers, etc.
- were overcome by evil powers
- descended into a shadowy underground place
- were slain and then came back to life and ascended to "heaven" on or around the vernal equinox (Easter)
- founded religious institutions
- were commemorated by Eucharistic rites (communion)
- many were believed to make a second coming into the world

All of the 30 or so Savior-God cults were around long before the Jews concocted the idea of their particular messiah, which they got from the Egyptians during their captivity.

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Didn't the Son of God die in our place?

Going into a detailed list/discussion about the Christ figure's predecessor's is beyond the scope of this forum. A short list of "saviors" who died for the "sins" of humanity hundreds or even thousands of years before Jesus:

- Bel of Babylonia
- Osiris of Egypt
- Prometheus of Greece
- Mithra of Persia
- Krishna of India

All of whom were prophesied to be born, were born of virgin mothers in some lowly place, tried, tortured, killed and rose from the dead. In fact, the events of Bel's life leading up to his capture, trial, execution and resurrection are almost identical to those of Jesus - and the ancient tablets describing the event were written 2000 years before Jesus was born. So in the historical sense, Jesus was really only a Johnny-Come-Lately in the "died for our sins" department. There's very little (if any) original work in Christianity and the fact that most of its central tenets were borrowed from much older religions really doesn't lend much credibility to its main claim to fame.

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Like the perfect Father that He is to us, He has given us every lesson in life that is needed to live the life that He wants for us. He has even given up His son - what more could He do for us.... nothing!

IMO, that's really nothing to crow about. That doesn't sound anything like fatherly love to me but rather the ultimate child neglect and abuse. If I let my son be tortured and killed in the erroneous belief that such an act would "save" mankind I'd rightly be thrown in jail. And if I had foreknowledge that such an atrocity was going to occur and did nothing to prevent it, I'd be nothing more than a monster. Allowing one's child to suffer for a bunch on ungrateful savages is the very worst thing one could hold up as an example of "perfect" Fatherhood.

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There is no greater gift in the Universe.

Not surprisingly, I disagree. IMO, the ability to think critically, logically and act with compassion towards fellow humans would be far more useful gifts. Far too much time and energy are put into preparing for the next life at the expense of this life.

quote:

Originally posted by Sights:
God has given us every instruction and direction that He can in order for us to "get it right", but true love never forces.

No, he hasn't, and that's the problem. He hasn't spoken to me about ANY of this. He hasn't come to me and let me know what he'd like me to do or how he'd like me to live. He hasn't "given me every instruction and direction that He can." All I've got is a book that comes highly recommended by a certain group of people. That ain't too clear. Can't he at least have the common courtesy to discuss things with me directly before throwing me into hell for all eternity?

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He could have set up a universe where everyone (including himself) was peaceful, joyful, content, and overflowing with love.

He did, but Adam and Eve botched it up. (Don't know if we would have done any better)

But he set things up in such a way that they were destined to botch it up. Why not just remove that option? We're not completely free - we can't fly, breathe underwater, or become invisible - so why not just take ability to choose evil out of the equation as well?

They botched up how--by eating an apple? By having unprotected sex? Come on. You allow the world to turn to a place where families lose loved ones way too early due to starvation, poverty and war, for thousands and thousands of years of intense suffering (including suffering induced in Your name), simply because one skinny little broad ate an apple she shouldn't have? How compassionate of Him. And you say True love never forces? Is slow torture better than forcing in your mind?

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzooo:
"Why don't we just agree to be brothers in the Lord, on the same path that Jesus made for us to follow. We may not always see eye to eye, but we can agree that Jesus as our supreme example, and the Bible and the supreme guide book to life."

You must be joking Sights. Do you really think this is a rational response?

Hey Jazzooo, my apologies for taking so long to respond to you. I've been away a lot and this is the first time that I have had to sit in front of the computer.
I apologise again if I have offended you with my last statement. I haven't read all 7 pages of the post, and, as a result, took some of your comments to imply Christian leanings. My mistake entirely.

Do I think my response was rational? Absolutely!!! Not only rational but scientific as well.

quote:

"Didn't He create this Universe?"

No. Who told you he did?

He did!

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"Didn't He make it perfect?"

No, obviously not. Your standards are way too low.

How do my standards effect/control God's standards?
I am a mere mortal and therefore unable to be compared with a wonderful, loving and caring God. Are my standards too low? I would have to say yes, but God is helping me to lift my game.

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"Didn't He give us Jesus His Son to teach us how to live?"

No.

History agrees that Jesus did exist, and that He performed many wonderful and supernatural works for the good of others. (read the writings of Josephus, a Jewish historian and contemporary of Jesus the Christ).
I am not aware of any modern historian who disputes these writings, and have read several (non-Christian) who uphold them as historically accurate.

quote:

"Didn't the Son of God die in our place?"

No, absolutely not.

Again, that He died at the hands of the Romans by crucifixion is a matter of well documented history with many witnesses to the event.


Do I expect, Jazzooo, for you to agree with my above statements or any of my above responses? Absolutely not! (But I can hope)
I was brought up to be a staunch evolutionist. I believed everything that I read or heard on the subject, but I could never get God out of the picture. Many years ago I decided to settle the matter once-and-for-all and set about studying both sides of the argument myself (something I have found since that very few, who hold to the views of evolution, are willing to do). As a result of many years of this study of all the information I could get my hands on, I came to the conclusion that the only real and consistent science came from the Creationists.

quote:

If you can call 'perfect' a sorry world where little children die of starvation every single hour while you pat yourself on the back about how you're doing all you can, simply because you believe God created it, then you must be a master at rationalization. Kind of like saying Revolution #9 must have been a great song, because John Lennon wrote it. Sometimes it helps to actually listen!

Jazzooo, you are making some very heavy judgement calls. It appears to me, by your comments, that you possess little or no knowledge of God or the Bible, which logically, would render your comments relatively uneducated in this area (If I may be so bold).
You blame God for that state of this world (and a sorry state it is too), but you seem to know nothing of Him or about Him.
You attack me based on a simple comment re doing what we are able to in our own sphere.
This attack is not rational, but is very emotional. If you cut through the emotion, reality will come through.

1. How can you argue against someone if you don't know them, what they stand for or what they teach?
Get to know God and what He teaches (if only academically), and then you will be able to make a rational and intelligent statement about what He has or hasn't thought/said/done.

2. You don't know me at all, but based on one comment (which you have taken our of context), you make me out as a self-promoting, self-righteous person, patting myself on the back in a world full of the misery of children; you also have made no effort to enquire before criticising. (not that it would ever be public information). If I did nothing at all and criticized others for doing nothing, then you would have a valid point. Certainly, at the age of 59, I still have much to learn, and if I did come across as self-righteous to you, I again have need to apologise. As I said in an earlier post, I'm not great at expressing myself in writing.

3. I believe that this post, and any other post on this forum, should be written in the tone of intelligent discussion, without lowering ourselves to attacking another persons character. This kind of discussion will only show up our own insecurities and lower the whole tone of the forum. That is not my aim and I'm sure it's not yours. So, lets address each other's comments with intelligence, and consideration of everything that was said.

Sights,

Sorry--not meant ot be a personal attack. I do think you need to look at your own responses as well, which seem pretty glib at times.

"History agrees that Jesus did exist..."

I agree that he existed too. That wasn't the issue.

"... and that He performed many wonderful and supernatural works for the good of others. (read the writings of Josephus, a Jewish historian and contemporary of Jesus the Christ).
I am not aware of any modern historian who disputes these writings, and have read several (non-Christian) who uphold them as historically accurate."

I'm sorry, but I am willing to bet that you have never read a non-Christian or non-religiously-motivated historian that upholds supernatural events as 'historically accurate.' The fact that you are 'not aware' of any serious historian who doesn't uphold reports of miracles as historically accurate suggests that you're not reading anyone who disagrees with your faith.

And you know, why should you? You have your faith and are certainly not searching for flaws in it, and of course no one outside of your faith believes that Jesus turned water into wine or came back from the dead, so you have no reasons to listen to all those non-believers anyway.

I am not disputing that Christ was born, lived, did good things and died on a cross--like thousands of other people throughout history. But it's ust a Christian leap of faith to say he was the son of God or more importantly, that he died for you and me. I think that is a legend concocted by power-hungry men to 'guilt' people into submission and obedience.

"quote:
"Didn't He create this Universe?"

"No. Who told you he did?

"He did!"


Well, I'd ask for backup on this issue myself.


"I apologise again if I have offended you with my last statement."

You didn't offend me--I said you must be joking because it's difficult to believe you believe what you said. That's not offensive to me.

"quote:
"Didn't the Son of God die in our place?"

"No, absolutely not."


"Again, that He died at the hands of the Romans by crucifixion is a matter of well documented history with many witnesses to the event."

I do not view this as a rational response to the question. There is a difference between the historically verifiable issue of whether Jesus died on a cross at the hands of Romans, and whether a) he was the Son of God, and b) God gave his life so he would die 'in our place,' which is a strictly Christian faith-based comment, not fact-based. I'm sure you don't mind slipping in a faith based comment with in a fact-based discussion, but you shouldn't expect others to play along as if they didn't notice.

"Many years ago I decided to settle the matter once-and-for-all and set about studying both sides of the argument myself (something I have found since that very few, who hold to the views of evolution, are willing to do)."

This is only your prejudice, and I'm sure it is based on a tiny sample of people, unless you count everyone who *has* studied the Bible and then decided that they don't believe in Christianity as 'just not being willing to think it over hard enough.'

" As a result of many years of this study of all the information I could get my hands on, I came to the conclusion that the only real and consistent science came from the Creationists. "

I would be interested in hearing about your process, and what kinds of data you looked at that convinced you evolution was a false concept.

Just for the record, I do know God. And I don't believe he is a Christian God at all, nor would he acknowledge the existence of Christianity as a legitimate path, nor that he offers salvation for those who believe in him, nor that he insists his name be capaitalized. I don't really believe he is a he, either.

Threads like this scare the piss out of me.

How do I have ANY rational dicussion with someone who believes literally in virgin births and individuals being magical fairy god children? And with the power of salvation held externally.

Isn't your end times coming soon? Shouldn't you personally be over in Isreal defending the holy land from the decendents of the other god? I mean...if you're being literal...I'm thinking some folks should be hopping a plane ASAP.

Hail Satan.

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:
Threads like this scare the piss out of me.

How do I have ANY rational dicussion with someone who believes literally in virgin births ......

Same here... I just don't get .. well never mind.

Stirring, stirring, stirring the pot. Where's Ian's pot stirring photo!!

Seriously: This one is interesting, can't let it die out - it must be... ahem... resurrected

quote:

How do I have ANY rational dicussion with someone who believes literally in virgin births and individuals being magical fairy god children? And with the power of salvation held externally.

Isn't your end times coming soon? Shouldn't you personally be over in Isreal defending the holy land from the decendents of the other god? I mean...if you're being literal...I'm thinking some folks should be hopping a plane ASAP.

Are you really interested in a rational discussion? It would seem logical that magical fairy god children wouldn't need planes.

quote:

Hail Satan.

I prefer satin instead - kinda soft and slinky on the skin.

Hail Satin! Velour's kinda cool too. Hmm... Rock on Velour!

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:
Threads like this scare the piss out of me.

How do I have ANY rational dicussion with someone who believes literally in virgin births and individuals being magical fairy god children? And with the power of salvation held externally.

Hey Popman, don't be scared by the beliefs of others, that truly isn't rational. Fear and rational discussion cannot ever co-exist.

quote:

Isn't your end times coming soon?

All the revelations of God seem to be pointing to that event like never before in history; I believe its not a matter of if, but when.

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Shouldn't you personally be over in Isreal defending the holy land from the decendents of the other god? I mean...if you're being literal...I'm thinking some folks should be hopping a plane ASAP.

This is a common mistake that is made by people who's main knowledge comes from passed-on information and not directly from the Bible. If I comment on Evolution, I will make sure of what I am saying by reading the literature on that particular subject. I try to encourage others to do the same when commenting on the Bible.

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Hey Popman, don't be scared by the beliefs of others, that truly isn't rational. Fear and rational discussion cannot ever co-exist.

2+2=1.

that's my belief. I will now be your accountant. THAT is what scares me. I just don't want you folks to be my accountant, if you will.

quote:

2+2=1.

that's my belief. I will now be your accountant. THAT is what scares me. I just don't want you folks to be my accountant, if you will.

Good analogy. My sentiments exactly.

quote:

This is a common mistake that is made by people who's main knowledge comes from passed-on information and not directly from the Bible.

Don't forget that

1) the bible is cobbled together and heavily edited/redacted, etc., and is incomplete.

2) is misunderstood and misinterpretted probably more than it is understood. Some of this is done on purpose to manipulate the flock and some of it is just nonsensical (not meant disrespectfully).

The old prophecies may have come and gone already 666 (Nero Caesar) has been dead a long time now.

With regard to prophecy, we can certainly force the issue, create a self-fulfilling prophecy if that's what the folks want.

I wonder why no one ever mentions the visual convergence of the planets and a star (to create the big glowing light) at the time of the birth of Christ. That is apparently in a 3,000 year cycle - so... maybe Christ returns in a thousand years if he hasn't already

Anyway, you need to look at the rest of the books. What 99% of Christians see is incomplete.

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:

2+2=1.

that's my belief. I will now be your accountant. THAT is what scares me. I just don't want you folks to be my accountant, if you will.

God teaches me that it is not my job to be your accountant or an accountant for anyone else for that matter. The only one I have to keep an eye on is me!
Some, from every different belief systems (including Evolution and Christianity) think that they have a mission to force others to believe what they do, but this is not God's way. He believes in the freedom of choice - force will never achieve anything.
Each is free to make up their own minds. We can discuss and share our particular views on life and the supernatural, and if we have respect for each other and our beliefs, we can enjoy posts like this without any fear, aggressiveness of judgements towards others simply because we don't see eye-to-eye on some things.
What could be more stimulating than that (and creating music of course).

Well, since this thread is still going, I figure why not throw my obnoxious 2 cents in? The following is way too long, so only read it if you're incredibly bored.

**************************

As you might know, a few months ago my wife and I had our first daughter, Sadie. It has been an absolutely amazing experience. I love her so much. Honestly, this is the biggest, most inspiring love I've ever felt in my life. I know it's cliché, but I didn't know a love like this was possible. I've never experienced such emotion and meaning. And, while it may sound egotistical, I can honestly say I don't think anyone else will ever love her this much.

After these past few months with Sadie, I've decided to have as many children as possible. I figure Lindsay and I can have at least one per year for the next 12 or 15 years, so that's the plan. I have so much love to give my children, how can I not try to have as many as possible? This unconditional, limitless love needs to be shared.

But, I got to thinking - with that many kids, some kind of discipline will be necessary. I could be wrong, but I'll bet that even if I only give them one simple rule, they'll probably turn around and do the exact opposite. That's what kids do, I guess. So I've gotta be prepared.

Outlined below is my child-rearing plan. While not exactly orthodox, it seems to me the right thing to do.

I plan on writing a little manual of guidelines and suggestions on how I'd like them to live life. It'll discuss the ways I want them to treat each other, the things I want them to think, the way they should feel and act towards me, etc. Everything they need to know about the life will be addressed.

Now, of course there are going to be many other manuals out there, all outlining these same issues. It will be each child's job to sort through all these different manuals and figure out which one was actually penned by me. I won't tell them which one I actually wrote (or even if I wrote one at all), but hopefully the logic and discernment that they inherited from me will be enough.

I know this all might sound a bit strange, but don't get me wrong – I love my kids.

With all these different manuals floating around, some of my children are bound to choose incorrectly. I'm sure some of my misguided kids will be certain they're right, and try to influence the thinking of the others. I'm sure some of them will think that I didn't write any of the manuals, and try to convince the others to just forget the whole manual-deal altogether. Hopefully, the intelligence which I bestowed upon my kids will be enough to guide them.

This may sound a little weird, but I'm telling you – I just love my children so much.

After a few years, I'll call all the kids together for a big family meeting. I'll reveal which book was actually mine, and I'll separate the kids into two groups: those who chose correctly and those who did not.

The first group is in for quite a treat. As a reward for their wise decision, I plan on taking complete care of them for the rest of their lives. I'll shower them with gifts and love without end, making sure they never again feel pain or sorrow. I plan on buying each of them a mansion, and seeing to it that they're completely provided for. They'll live out the rest of their days with me, perfectly happy and content. I will show them what a father's unconditional love is all about.

The second group will not be quite so lucky. After all, they either ignored the whole manual game altogether, or chose incorrectly, and so must be punished. And punished severely.

I know it sounds kinda callous, but bear in mind – I really love my kids.

The second group of children will be subjected to torture, the likes of which they've never experienced or imagined. I'm thinking a big aspect of their punishment will be fire. I mean, after all – getting burned freakin' hurts. I'm really hoping that I can impress upon them the severity of their mistake, and nothing says "you-really-messed-up" like having your flesh burned repeatedly and indefinitely. I plan on making their pain so intense that they will weep endlessly, and if they gnash their teeth a little bit, all the better.

I'm gonna want their turmoil to include emotional and intellectual pain as well, so I'll be sure to inflict upon them whatever will make them sad, scared, and sorrowful, too – you know, anything to increase the suffering.

It might seem kinda cruel, but make no mistake – my love for my children is immeasurable.

No sleep or rest for my misguided children, either. That would simply be an escape from the pain. I haven't worked out all the details yet, but I'm sure there's some way that I can keep them in a constant state of wakefulness, that way every burning ember which sears their skin will be felt fully.

Death is absolutely out of the question. That would be a permanent escape from their punishment, so we can't have that. Calling in a team of physicians to assist might be necessary, cause I plan on keeping them alive indefinitely. I really want my children to understand the gravity of the choices they made. I want them as miserable as possible for as long as possible. After all, they picked wrong, didn't they?

I know all this might seem kind of crazy, but please understand – I really love my children.

I, of course, won't be the one inflicting all these horrible things upon my children. After all, I wouldn't want any of them accidentally feeling any of this unfathomable love I have for them, so I'd best stay as far away as possible. I plan on having a master jailer and torturer take care of all the burning, tormenting, lashing, cutting, etc. Plus, I'll be busy providing my other children with endless bliss, peace and happiness.

I'm sure some of you are thinking that I'm at least slightly psychotic, but try to remember – I love all of my children more than you can possibly imagine.



Now, I know I'll probably be criticized by a lot of people for my parenting style, but who are you to judge? How can you possibly understand my reasons for doing things? After all, have you ever been a parent to this many children? Have you ever loved anyone this much?

Mr. Gibson, you totally made my day.