+1. How insightful.....

quote:

I figure Lindsay and I can have at least one per year for the next 12 or 15 years, so that's the plan.

Thank you, George Carlin!
Let's say you have 12 kids. Let's also say you are an incredible provider as well as a very creative and famous entrepreneur. Since your wife's reproductive organs are by this time shot completely to hell, you adopt 20 or 30 children…maybe more. You have all this love to give, after all. You teach them your values about how to live and conduct their lives. You tell them, “Be good stewards of what I teach you, and you will inherit the estate and the family business.” You also warn them of the pitfalls of life. “Don’t get in the car with strangers.” “Don’t steal.” “Don’t prostitute yourself out.” “Don’t let yourself get addicted to drugs and alcohol…etc, etc”

Some of the kids grow up and make you so proud. They adopt your spirit and they conduct their business just as you would. Their success is pretty amazing, and they grow your business by leaps and bounds. Some of the kids totally ignore you. They get involved in all the things you told them not to. They learn to resent you because you don’t bail them out all the time...which would be useless as long as they would find themselves right back in the same predicament anyway. It is time for them to grow up and take responsibility. Some of them finally get it, and you are so relieved. Now you can help them out of the mess they have made. You love them, after all, and want to see them successful and happy.

Some of the kids never get it. Some of them even get involved in some of the worse things you warned them about and die young. You know there isn’t a lot you can do. You can’t live their lives for them, and if you give them any part of the family business, they will squander the assets and run the business into the ground. You have so much love, and your estate is growing so huge, that you can continue to adopt more kids…and are even able take in anyone who will accept your principals and values. That just makes the lost kids more and more resentful. They are so miserable in their own personal hell…but, unfortunately, there’s not a whole lot you can do.

Some of your kids grow up to be so freaking arrogant! Because of who you are, they think they are better than everybody else. In business, they are ruthless. They do more harm to the family name than good, yet they think they are the only ones who have the right to conduct business in your name. They have no tolerance at all for any competition…and will go to great lengths to snuff it out. They often use methods that abhor you…sometimes disparaging your children that are truly perpetuating your legacy. When it comes time for their inheritance, they are going to be quite disappointed. You are pretty unhappy with them at this point, and you might even kick their ass one of these days.

Other people claim they are your kids, and even use your name to get on TV and take advantage of a lot of ignorant people to make a lot of money. Some of them you will kick their ass, too, in court. Some of them ruin themselves, and some of them…well their ridiculous hairdos are punishment enough.

quote:

As you might know, a few months ago my wife and I had our first daughter, Sadie.

Hey, unless this is also part of the joke congradulations.

Lance

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WalkerGibson:
Well, since this thread is still going, I figure why not throw my obnoxious 2 cents in? The following is way too long, so only read it if you're incredibly bored.

**************************

I did read it Walker, and with sadness I can honestly say that I have heard it many times before. I know where this view of God originated and how it is perpetuated. It certainly does show God as a cruel tyrant, and if I knew a God like that I certainly would not want to have anything to do with Him.

The first part you got right, God does love unconditionally, and more than any of us can appreciate or realise.

The second part you got partly right, He has given us a manual to read, but His authorship of it is no secret. He makes it abundantly clear that the Bible is from Him to us, and offers it without reservation.

Thirdly, I make an open challenge to anyone who believes as you do to show me in the Bible the teaching of an eternity of burning punishment in a place called hell - it isn't there!!!
This is a myth perpetuated by man to scare people into submission to their authority under punishment of an eternally burning hell, and I will put this challenge on the forum.

I sincerely agree with you Walker, the God you described in your allegory is not a God that I would want to know, follow, or worship. A God like that would not be able to draw people to himself with love, it would repel most, and those who did follow him would do so out of fear.

I was raised in a mainstream, and very traditional church, and was taught the very things that you state in your post. I feared God, and that was the main reason that I gave Him any attention at all; fear of going to hell. When, many years later as an adult, I finally got the incentive to find out for myself what God taught, man, what a shock! I had to unlearn so much garbage, and re-learn what God is really like, and its nothing like the image the world gives Him (similar to what you wrote in your post).

Maybe something similar, or worse, happened to you - I dunno. I do know that what you described ain't the real God - nothing like Him.

quote:

Originally posted by Sights:

Thirdly, I make an open challenge to anyone who believes as you do to show me in the Bible the teaching of an eternity of burning punishment in a place called hell - it isn't there!!!

Matthew 25:41-46: (NIV translation, but the text is essentially the same amongst the most common translations)

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9

8"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

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This is a myth perpetuated by man to scare people into submission to their authority under punishment of an eternally burning hell,

In a sense, you're right. The passages above are straight from the Bible, which was entirely a creation of the human mind. We humans invented the gods and the various religions to prop them up.

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and I will put this challenge on the forum.

Gosh, that was easy! Do I win something? The two passages above are fairly typical of the many references the careful reader will find with regard to eternal punishment in the Bible. Some reference a fiery torment, others make mention of being shut out from the presense of God. Semantics and hermeneutical gymnastics aside on the Hebrew gehenna, the concept of eternal torment is pretty clearly laid out in both the OT and the NT.

quote:

Originally posted by Skeetch:
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9

9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

G’day Skeetch,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you , but life is busy with much to do – as I’m sure we all know.

You state that “The two passages above are fairly typical of the many references the careful reader will find with regard to eternal punishment in the Bible”. I strongly agree with you that a careful reading is absolutely necessary to understand what the Bible is teaching. Although it is not possible to give a detailed answer on this forum (it would be a couple of [forum] pages long) I will be as brief and succinct as possible. Let me start with a little background info.

• The Bible clearly states that there are no lost souls in hell today, and that the punishment of the wicked is going to be given at the ‘day of judgement. ‘
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.” Rev 22:12
“For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works. “ Matt 16:27
"The Lord knowes how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9.
If Jesus is holding His reward until the day of judgement, then it (obviously) has not yet been given, and if the unjust are being reserved or held back till the same day, they cannot be burning in hell, now!

• The Bible also states when sinners will be cast into hellfire?

"So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matthew 13:40-42. "The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48.
Sinners will be cast into hellfire at the great judgement day at the end of the world--not when they die. God would not punish a person in fire until his case was tried and decided in court at the end of the world. Nor would God burn a murderer who died 5,000 years ago 5,000 years longer than one who dies and deserves punishment for the same sin today.

• So where are these sinners, who have already died, now?

"The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. "The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction." "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb." Job 21:30, 32.
The Bible is specific. Both the wicked and the righteous who have died are in their graves "sleeping" until the resurrection day.
 
• The Bible teaches that "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. "Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." James 1:15. "God ... gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
The wages (or punishment) for sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked "perish," or receive "death." The righteous receive "everlasting life."

• Now to the question of what will happen to the wicked when they are cast into the fire.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whore mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.
The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only has immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16. When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and "live for ever." Genesis 3:22-24. The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.
The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalms 37:20), will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalms 37:38), will "consume away" (Psalms 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalms 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalms 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalms 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalms 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.

• As for when the fire will be started.

"So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man ... shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matthew 13:40-42. "They went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9. "The righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner." Proverbs 11:31.
At the end of the world, God Himself will kindle hellfire. As the holy city comes down from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2), the wicked attempt to capture it. At that time, God will rain down fire from heaven upon the earth, and it will devour the wicked. This fire is Bible hellfire.
 
• As for how long the wicked will suffer in the fire.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "And then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. "That servant, which knew his lord's will, and ... neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12:47, 48.
The Bible does not tell how long the wicked will be punished before receiving death in the fire. God does specifically state, however, that all will be punished according to their deeds. This means some will receive greater punishment than others, based upon what they have done.
As for the verses you quoted in your post; Matt 25:41 is really stating that the effects of the fire are eternal. This agrees completely with what the rest of the verses on this subject teach. The same goes for verse 46; they will go to an “eternal punishment”. The punishment is for eternity, in its effect. We have already seen that the Bible teach the complete destruction of the wicked, and that destruction is for eternity – they will never be coming back.

So, I definitely do agree that a “careful reading” of the Bible will reveal much more, but a prayerful reading, seeking wisdom and guidance from a loving God, will reveal so much more.
Please keep in mind that the above quotes from the Bible are not a complete list on the subject. There are so many more, but this forum is not the place to elaborate to that extent. This reply is probably a bit long, but I didn’t know how to answer you with any less info.

Sorry to read that you think God is an invention of the human mind. I can prove (academically) that He is not. If you think about it long enough; how could 40 authors (approx) write 66 books over a period of 1500 years and never disagree on one point. That, to me, is supernatural! You couldn’t put 40 experienced writers in a room at the same time, have someone read out one chapter of a book that they have never read, and get them to individually write the message down, and expect them to completely agree with each other. IMHO I don’t believe that it is humanly possible.

If you have any further statement or question, I will be happy to respond.

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Gosh, that was easy! Do I win something?

Sorry about the lack of a prize.

Well if the agreement part was an issue than the 500 monks that agreed on the accuracy of Budha's teaching after his death proves his divinity? If 500 men agreed on all the details and authorized the official version of Budha's teachings it means it had to be supernatural?


http://www.dinosaurhome.com/

quote:

Sorry to read that you think God is an invention of the human mind. I can prove (academically) that He is not.

I would definitely like to see/read your attempt to do so and therefore I invite you to go for it. Remember that sound academic rigor is an absolute requirement in order to successfully make your argument. "Opinions" in any form won't cut it.

I wonder if we're not confusing academic with scientific?

"Academic" would certainly include philosophical discussion, teleological arguments of Thomas Aquinas, etc. I love philosophical arguments, although I'm not up on them as much as I was in college. It's hardly "hard science" though.

Seems to me that (getting back to recognizing a Christian) some folks, including myself have a problem with rigid dogmatic themes. Faith, in and of itself, doesn't seem to be an issue, as long as it's fairly benign. Where it always seems to fall down is when zealots decide that it's ok to force a particular brand of religion down the throats of the unwilling.

Seems to me that it's sufficient that good and evil do exist and that it's always preferable to do the right thing. To believe in a powerful positive force in nature and the universe. And it's cool to call that God IMO. Or spirits, or whatever.

I have issues with Judaism/Christianity from the get go. The idea that it's evil to eat fruit of the tree of knowledge started the ball rolling for me. This metaphor then immediately makes it such that it's inadvisable to seek education? To learn? It sets up the idea that we must go through life unquestioning and incurious - placid and content with ignorance. That knowledge is dangerous. This is incongruous with the nature of human beings, we dive the oceans, sail to space because we are curious and we must learn new things. It's not enough to be the happy idiot. Doesn't work that way. None of us would be hanging out at Studio Forums trying to learn new things.

This leads me to conclude that no matter how divine the inspiration, there is the unmistakable human stain on religious thought. There are the obvious clues with regard to control, subservience, slavery. The fear is that if people start to ask questions, the whole thing falls apart under close scrutiny - those with the power over others lose that power. Think... if more people questioned these things, how many lives could be saved, how much more tolerant would we become? More understanding, better friendships: more amity, less enmity.

When you do ask the questions, it's liberating it's not heresy. You're no longer forced to take the good with the bad, you're able to take the good of it and reject the bad. You can look at all the religions, take some of the good things from all of them. After all, there must have been a mother religion at some point way back in human history, every tribe and culture seems (or seemed) to have something to explain the supernatural, or the unthinkable tragedies.

I don't know, just some rambling, loose thoughts. Talk of religion... perfect for a Sunday morning

-Adam

quote:

Originally posted by 1adam12:
I wonder if we're not confusing academic with scientific?

"Academic" would certainly include philosophical discussion, teleological arguments of Thomas Aquinas, etc. I love philosophical arguments, although I'm not up on them as much as I was in college. It's hardly "hard science" though.
-Adam

No confusion here Adam. There certainly can be philosophic discussions within an academic paradigm but Sights stated that he could "prove" his argument from an academic perspective which by definition means that his argument must meet current standards of scientific rigor and discipline. This is what I invited him to do and I look forward to reading his thesis with great interest. If Sights is successful, then it will indeed be groundbreaking and revolutionary as nobody to date has been able to successfully provide such "proof."

I agree that he can easily provide a plausible philosophical/theological hypothesis but he stated that he could "prove" his argument and this is where the standards and requirements become radically different. Sights will have to lay aside his obvious bias and subjective assertions in order to meet these standards. Its pretty clear to me from his previous posts that he is not capable of doing this (and neither is anyone else who holds tightly to these kinds of literal theological beliefs).

quote:

This metaphor then immediately makes it such that it's inadvisable to seek education? To learn? It sets up the idea that we must go through life unquestioning and incurious - placid and content with ignorance.

That's an interesting concept and I hadn't looked at it quite that way before. But it forms the basis for Christianity. In order to be one of the "faithful" a lot of people believe that you have to accept the bible as literally true and ignore any evidence to the contrary. Evolution is a good example and hard core Christians tie themselves in knots to discount an overwhelming amount of evidence that the bible story of creation just isn't true. Eating from the tree of knowledge is a very bad thing.

Seems to me that evolution (at least micro evolution) is undeniable and easily observable in modern times - no time-lapse photography needed. A cold/flu virus for example evolves every year. The same holds true with insects. A chemical company comes up with some sort of toxic brew to kill a nest of spiders one year - maybe they get 99% of them - but the 1% that survive breed a resistant offspring the next year. They've evolved! Nature finds a way - most of the time.

Take parts of Ukraine that were evacuated just after Chernobyl as another example. It was believed initially that some of the small towns and cities, in affected areas, would be uninhabitable for hundreds of years (at the least). While no humans are allowed back in some of these places, the animal and plant life has thrived. There was an initial die off, but then living things just shot right back up. Sorry... that was my Discovery Channel moment

I have a lot of problems with the modern religions of Israel/Palestine. I have problems with homegrown folks who are religious types but for some reason support war, or the big funny one: the death penalty (while not supporting abortion, no less). All kinds of these strangely juxtaposed thoughts that are not in line with religious dogma. Either you are pro-life or you or not - how do you pick and choose? Either vengeance is the Lord's privilege or it is not. Dragging it further in to the political realm (eeek!) how about interventionist, intrusive foreign policy? Shouldn't we remove the plank from our own eye before we criticize the splinter in our neighbor's? Something like that... :P

Yikes, religion and politics in the same post! I've sunk to a new low

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"The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. "The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction." "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb." Job 21:30, 32.
The Bible is specific. Both the wicked and the righteous who have died are in their graves "sleeping" until the resurrection day.

What happens to the ones that are cremated?

quote:

In a sense, you're right. The passages above are straight from the Bible, which was entirely a creation of the human mind. We humans invented the gods and the various religions to prop them up.

This opens up an interesting can of worms. Why the need for religion at all? Why all the different religions? How far back does religion go? Is there a mother religion way back somewhere that started it all? That's the thing that fascinates me

A real Christ like person, must live the life and not just talk about it.
God greatest gift he gave us is love.
And to love one another.
It's sad when people of God think they know it all and push their view points on others.
But it's also sad when Born again Christain whimp out and not stand for Jesus.You must be wise in the Lord to know when to speak and when not to.....
I feel as a follower of the Lord, I should live the life he wanted me to live, and if others follow then great. You can never push someone into going to church, pounding the bible on people makes people run away from the Lord. The truth is we are not God, so let Jesus reach out. The Lord knows better than we do about the trouble's of this world.
And as Christains we should have open arms to welcome anyone into the house of God.
I don't think we need to blow people's doors down, but just be a true friend to those in need. The Lord will send those people to you when the time is right.Everyone needs the Lord sometime.....just wait on the Lord, he knows best.

Thanks Jordan Rivers

http://jordanriversguitarforum.blogspot.com/